RMMGA postings on nylon-string guitars (2001-2003)

127 Messages in 22 Threads:

best nylon acoustic strings [6]
Nylon string guitar with cutaway and electronics? [8]
Nylon, Jazz Box or Short Scale to Extend Practice Time? [2]
Nylon string flattops [9]
Godin [7]
Taylor classical review [7]
Cheap Czech classicals in UK [1]
Looking for inexpensive Classical Guitar advice [7]
Nylon strings? [4]
fingerpicker goes classical > string question?? [7]
Jose Ramirez guitar choice [2]
godin multiac...opinions? [6]
Rick Turner Renaissance--opinions [3]
Nylon strung acoustic - ideas [10]
Taylor Nylon 72CE [7]
Budget classical? [8]
Recommendations for nylon strings [14]
Custom Nylon String Archtop Guitar - Two Questions [4]
Ramirez R2's [4]
inexspensive classical guitars?? [1]
Guitar Review - Woodley White Classical [1]
Nylon string suggestions?? [9]

From: <chrisc@blueridge...>
Subject: Re: best nylon acoustic strings
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 12:52:12 GMT
Organization: Deja.com

In article <RUd86.7290$<ft6.134752@typhoon...>>,
  "Jim Figurski" <uglijim@mediaone.net> wrote:
> What does everyone think is the best nylon strings for the acoustic
guitar
> out there? If possible, please give reason as to why you think these
> paticular strings are best. Thanks
>
> jim figurski
>
> --
Are you talking about nylon strings for a classical guitar? If so,
there are numerous good ones: Thomastik Infeld Classic C's, (expensive
with a non nylon string that stays in tune better); Savarez (including
the traditional red card hard tension and the Alliance more expensive
series); Hense (a relatively new German string that is very good). Also
D'Addario's Pro Arte series is excellent and easily available in music
stores.

And I've left out good strings by many others here.....the above are
just some of my favorites...

Hard to say which is "best". They're all sound good. I like the
Thomastik Classic C's because they get in tune, and stay in tune.
(Nylon tends to stretch and get out of tune fairly easily....)

Chris

See http://www.stringsbymail.com for starters...

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From: Paul K <pgkuchar@my-deja...>
Subject: Re: best nylon acoustic strings
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 14:08:17 GMT
Organization: Deja.com

....snip
> Hard to say which is "best". They're all sound good. I like the
> Thomastik Classic C's because they get in tune, and stay in tune.
> (Nylon tends to stretch and get out of tune fairly easily....)
>
> Chris
>
I would have to second that opinion of the Thomastik Classic C's. I'm
using those now too and find that not only do they stay in tune, the
wound strings also seem to last longer. The winding doesn't frey at
the frets as quickly. I have not found any other string that will do
that. But then, if I'm going to pay a premium, if the strings don't
last longer, I wouldn't use them.

The other brand that I have liked in the past though is the LaBella
Professional series high tension gold. These are also pricey, but they
do have a great sound.

Paul Kucharski
--
Acoustic Fingerstyle Guitar
http://www.execpc.com/~pgkuchar/index.html

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From: Jim Graham <james.graham2@sympatico...>
Subject: Re: best nylon acoustic strings
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 13:24:13 GMT
Organization: Sympatico

I like D'Addario Pro Arte, hard tension particularily, everytime I have
tried other brands I end up going back to Pro Arte.

Jim in Canada http://www.mp3.com/jimgraham

From: Ralph <ralph@oakcottage-TX...>
Subject: Re: best nylon acoustic strings
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 11:51:37 -0600
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com

I want to second Jim's nomination of Pro Arte. I've tried the
Tomastik-Infeld Classic C and the Savarez Corum Alliance and they're very
good, durable strings, but they change the sound of the guitar and give it
a more steel-string-like sound. I prefer the sound of the traditional
nylon.
    -Ralph
Jim Graham wrote:

> I like D'Addario Pro Arte, hard tension particularily, everytime I have
> tried other brands I end up going back to Pro Arte.
>
> Jim in Canada http://www.mp3.com/jimgraham

--
Ralph Seibert
<ralph@oakcottage-TX...>
http://www.oakcottage-TX.com

From: Bruce Smith <baabin@earthlink...>
Subject: Re: best nylon acoustic strings
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 17:23:34 GMT
Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net

Jim,

Unlike the others in the group, my experience with Thomastik-Infeld
Classic "C's" was an absolute abortion. I kept records of all the
strings I tried until I settled on what I use now, and the Thomastik's
took longer to settle in, and lasted only slightly longer that Ernie
Ball bottom line strings. If you have MS Access I would be willing to
send you the database with the information.

I found the Savarez Corum, Hannabach and believe it or not GHs Vangard
2510's are my main choices. I use High Tensions on all of them, and
actually prefer the GHs line. By the way, this is not on just one
guitar, nor is it just my opinion. I sold a Manuel Rodriguez with them
on, and the person who purchased it ended up getting hold of me to find
out what type of string was on it when I sold it. He had gone through
several strings and could not get the sound he liked after changing the
strings.

I admit, preferences vary with the individual and what i like in sound
may not be what you like. My ideal is a crisp, bell like tone (read this
as bright) versus one with more of the lower overtones.

Good luck on your quest.

Play in peace friend...

Smitty

Jim Figurski wrote:
>
> What does everyone think is the best nylon strings for the acoustic guitar
> out there? If possible, please give reason as to why you think these
> paticular strings are best. Thanks
>
> jim figurski
>
> --
> The Unofficial Homepage of Akira Ifukube
> http://people.mw.mediaone.net/uglijim

From: David Kilpatrick <david@maxwellplace...>
Subject: Re: best nylon acoustic strings
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2001 18:34:56 +0000

in article RUd86.7290$<ft6.134752@typhoon...>, Jim Figurski at
<uglijim@mediaone...> wrote on 14/1/2001 9:00 am:

> What does everyone think is the best nylon strings for the acoustic guitar
> out there? If possible, please give reason as to why you think these
> paticular strings are best. Thanks
>
Hannabach high tension, Savarez Corum/Alliance or plastic wound high
tension, D'Addario Pro Arte Composite High or Extra Tension. Reasons:
volume, brilliance, speed of response, intonation accuracy, swift to reach
tuned tension and good at holding (Hannabach worse, as they are conventional
strings, the others are not), long life. Cons: all fairly expensive.

David

Nylon string guitar with cutaway and electronics? [8]

From: Aaron <Aaron4217@mail...>
Subject: Nylon string guitar with cutaway and electronics?
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 21:55:27 -0500
Organization: University of Virginia

I'm primarily an archtop player who wants to add nylon sounds to my
repertoire. I'm looking for a guitar with a cutaway and built-in
electronics. Half the time I'll play it unplugged, half plugged in. A
2" neck width is acceptable. Two I've read about are:
        Tacoma CC10E4 ($850)
        Cordoba 50EC ($1400)
Anyone have opinions about either of these guitars before I place an
order for one just to try it out? Thanks.

From: Jack A. Zucker <jaz@gwis...>
Subject: Re: Nylon string guitar with cutaway and electronics?
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 03:37:56 GMT
Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing

Check out www.rickturnerguitars.com

His nylon electric is the best, hands down.

--
--
Jack A. Zucker
E-Mail: <jaz@jackzucker...>
Jazz Guitar Page: http://www.jackzucker.com

"Aaron" <<Aaron4217@mail...>> wrote in message
news:<2sue7t07dfu7o78f28rio7s2s3pu8v7kfn@4ax...>...
> I'm primarily an archtop player who wants to add nylon sounds to my
> repertoire. I'm looking for a guitar with a cutaway and built-in
> electronics. Half the time I'll play it unplugged, half plugged in. A
> 2" neck width is acceptable. Two I've read about are:
>
> Tacoma CC10E4 ($850)
> Cordoba 50EC ($1400)
>
> Anyone have opinions about either of these guitars before I place an
> order for one just to try it out? Thanks.
>

From: Joe Novack <joe5151@my-deja...>
Subject: Re: Nylon string guitar with cutaway and electronics?
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 04:04:24 GMT
Organization: Deja.com

I
> Tacoma CC10E4 ($850)
> Cordoba 50EC ($1400)
>
> Anyone have opinions about either of these guitars before I place an
> order for one just to try it out? Thanks.

Carvin also makes one.....CL450 @ $900
http://www.carvin.com

Joe

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From: Joe Finn <ttc19199@taconic...>
Subject: Re: Nylon string guitar with cutaway and electronics?
Date: Tue, 30 Jan 2001 23:52:29 -0500
Organization: Newsfeeds.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 80,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups.

My Alvarez is a really nice instrument. I don't know if they still make
them but it is a model 5080 with the features you mention and probably in
your price range, too. ...joe

Aaron wrote:

> I'm primarily an archtop player who wants to add nylon sounds to my
> repertoire. I'm looking for a guitar with a cutaway and built-in
> electronics. Half the time I'll play it unplugged, half plugged in. A
> 2" neck width is acceptable. Two I've read about are:
>
> Tacoma CC10E4 ($850)
> Cordoba 50EC ($1400)
>
> Anyone have opinions about either of these guitars before I place an
> order for one just to try it out? Thanks.

-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
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From: David Kilpatrick <david@maxwellplace...>
Subject: Re: Nylon string guitar with cutaway and electronics?
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 10:37:40 +0000
Organization: Icon Publications Ltd

Aaron wrote:
>
> I'm primarily an archtop player who wants to add nylon sounds to my
> repertoire. I'm looking for a guitar with a cutaway and built-in
> electronics. Half the time I'll play it unplugged, half plugged in. A
> 2" neck width is acceptable. Two I've read about are:
>
> Tacoma CC10E4 ($850)
> Cordoba 50EC ($1400)
>
Well, you could JUST about have had my Lowden S-25J nylon string jazz
guitar for that (I was asking $1500). 1994, condition as you might
expect, not mint but tidy, shipping from Britain might be expensive. 500
per cent better than the names mentioned above, not an easy guitar in
some ways but specially built for jazz style and probably one of the
best choices for an archtop player. Neck 48mm. Superb uplugged guitar,
rosewood-cedar combination and Lowden sound with a great bass, rich
harmonic-laden sound works superbly for solos.

Reason for sale: I've acquired a more classical width neck older Lowden
nylon string, tatty and ugly in comparison but with a 51mm neck and
extra large body it suits my own non-classical, non-jazz celtic stuff a
little better. Bass nothing like as rich but overall better for 3+
string chords (purer fundamentals from mahogany-cedar). I'm not very
good a damping strings and the S-25J has been if anything too responsive
for my abilities, this one is a little less so.

David Kilpatrick

From: <johnsonline@my-deja...>
Subject: Re: Nylon string guitar with cutaway and electronics?
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 16:01:31 GMT
Organization: Deja.com

You may want to consider one of Abe Wechter's nylon string models.
http://www.wechterguitars.com/

He's built for Earl Klugh and John McLaughlin.

FWIW,

John

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From: Michael D. Schweisthal <md@u...>
Subject: Re: Nylon string guitar with cutaway and electronics?
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 10:38:08 -0800
Organization: University of Washington

Check out the latest issue of Acoustic Guitar magazine, too. They have an
article in there about nylon-string archtops (haven't read it yet!) Since
you're an archtop player, maybe this might be of interest?

Mike S.

On Tue, 30 Jan 2001, Aaron wrote:

> I'm primarily an archtop player who wants to add nylon sounds to my
> repertoire. I'm looking for a guitar with a cutaway and built-in
> electronics. Half the time I'll play it unplugged, half plugged in. A
> 2" neck width is acceptable. Two I've read about are:
>
> Tacoma CC10E4 ($850)
> Cordoba 50EC ($1400)
>
> Anyone have opinions about either of these guitars before I place an
> order for one just to try it out? Thanks.
>
>

From: Prys Lewis <Lewisiaid@btinternet...>
Subject: Re: Nylon string guitar with cutaway and electronics?
Date: Wed, 31 Jan 2001 19:28:45 -0000
Organization: BT Internet

Sorry I can't be more specific, but I know Yamaha do a very nice Cutaway
Electric cutaway. It is not quite as deep as an ordinary classical acoustic
but it has a wonderful tone amplified or bare. I tried one out three years
ago - about $700 / �400
"Aaron" <<Aaron4217@mail...>> wrote in message
news:<2sue7t07dfu7o78f28rio7s2s3pu8v7kfn@4ax...>...
> I'm primarily an archtop player who wants to add nylon sounds to my
> repertoire. I'm looking for a guitar with a cutaway and built-in
> electronics. Half the time I'll play it unplugged, half plugged in. A
> 2" neck width is acceptable. Two I've read about are:
>
> Tacoma CC10E4 ($850)
> Cordoba 50EC ($1400)
>
> Anyone have opinions about either of these guitars before I place an
> order for one just to try it out? Thanks.
>

Nylon, Jazz Box or Short Scale to Extend Practice Time? [2]

From: Dick Schneiders <dickschnei@aol...>
Subject: Re: Nylon, Jazz Box or Short Scale to Extend Practice Time?
Date: 16 Nov 2001 12:00:08 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com

Warren,

Well, I currently own several archtops (and have owned and sold several more),
have played all of the possible varieties of "Babys" and travel guitars, and
recently purchased a couple of decent nylon string guitars. I also have had
over the last several years problems with tendonitis in my left hand/wrist from
playing my steel stringed flattops more than my aging body would tolerate.

My advice, and this is only based on my experiences, would be to get the nylon
stringed guitar. However, be certain that the sound is something that you can
be satisfied with. Do not think that you will eventually learn to like the
sound if it doesn't currently please you. Also, be certain that you can get
around on the wider fingerboard. Since you are considering one with a narrower
than normal fingerboard, at 1 7/8", I would assume that you have already
thought about that potential problem.

I love playing the nylon string guitar, now. In the past decade or so I would
never have considered owning one, now I own two and am playing them about 75%
of the time. They are considerably easier on my hands and tendons, as long as I
don't attempt something foolish on the 2" wide fingerboards. I now appreciate
that nylon stringed guitars have a much wider dynamic range and available
palette of tones and am trying to learn how to control all of that.

A decent sounding nylon stringed guitar is a different beast than a steel
string guitar and, if you are anything like me, will give you much enjoyment
that you could not get from a steel string guitar. Now I find that I even
enjoy my steel stringed guitars more. I had been going through a period of
extreme staleness when it came to playing any guitar. Once again I am playing
for hours every day.

By the way, the guitars I purchased were a mint condition 1999 Cordoba 75F
flamenco (with Fishman Blender system) on eBay for $700, and a new Lucida
Artista Picado 797 flamenco on eBay for $400. Both of these guitars are all
solid woods (cypress/spruce) and are very well built. I would probably have
liked a bit narrower fingerboard for much of the stuff that I play, but that is
the only thing that I would consider changing with either of these guitars.

Good luck, and let us know what you end up deciding.

Dick Schneiders

>My real love is acoustic steel string and for the next several months,
>I have the opportunity as well as the motivation to practice up to a
>steady 3 hours a day.
>
>But I've discovered 3 hours a day, seven days a week, on a dreadnaught
>is a little tough on aging hands, tendons, etc, etc.
>
>Have any of you knowledgable people run up against this and are you
>pleased with whatever compromises you may have made?
>
>I've thought about
>
> - getting a Yamaha nylon with a non-classical fretboard (1 7/8" nut).
> - getting a cheap "archtop" (Epiphone Emperor II or Broadway).
> - getting a Taylor Baby, Big Baby, Larrivee Parlor, etc.
>
>I'd like to go with a plan that doesn't result in my hating the sound
>of whatever instrument I use to extend my practice time.
>
>Would like to spend ~$500, can't go over $1K.
>
>All your suggestions will be very much appreciated.
>
>Warren
>
>
>
>
>
>

From: Dick Schneiders <dickschnei@aol...>
Subject: Re: Nylon, Jazz Box or Short Scale to Extend Practice Time?
Date: 16 Nov 2001 18:44:48 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com

>for me I relax on a Gibson LG-2.....which I think is a great
>guitar....smaller body, 14 to the body, slightly smaller neck and great
>authentic rootsy sound for almost anything.

Well, I also currently own a wonderful LG-2. It is a 1944 model and has the
rarer maple back and sides. It is a great sounding guitar for roots music, but
doesn't offer enough relief from my bouts with tendonitis to be a viable
solution - at least in my case. At one time I did own a 1950's LG-2, 3/4 sized
guitar. It was a beautiful little guitar and had a full sound. It was enough
easier to play that I did find some relief from too much playing on my full
sized guitars. However, the very narrow fingerboard was simply too cramped for
me and I finally sold it.

As I previously stated, my newly acquired nylon guitars certainly do give me
significant relief from the accumulation of pain and discomfort that I
sometimes feel from over exertion on my steel stringed guitars.
  >find the string tension and diameter a little too different from a
>steel string to make crossover practicing effective.

While nylon and steel stringed guitars do offer different problems and
solutions as to the physical nature of playing the instruments, I am having no
difficulity in playing just about all of my repertoire on either of them and
going back and forth between them during the same practice session. I
originally purchased the flamenco guitars to play new stuff that I have been
working on that I thought would be enhanced with the nylon sound (correct
thinking on my part, by the way), but I have also been enjoying playing
ragtime, country blues, jazz, pop etc. on them.

I would not recommend anybody go out and buy a nylon stringed guitar simply as
relief from the strain of playing a steel stringed guitar, unless they first
have had an opportunity to play one and determine if it is feasible for them.
However, if that hurdle is overcome satisfactorily, then I can see nothing to
prevent anybody from playing both on nylon and steel stringed guitars at any
level of their development.

Heck, there are many fantastic guitarists that double on these (and other)
styles of guitars - Duck Baker, for example.

Dick Schneiders

Nylon string flattops [9]

From: Tony Done <tonydone@bigpond...>
Subject: Nylon string flattops
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 13:15:36 +1000
Organization: Telstra BigPond Internet Services (http://www.bigpond.com)

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The recent thread on cedar tops got me thinking:

Which luthiers make nylon string guitars with necks similar to flattops =
ie 1 3/4", modern contour? Websites?

Thanks

--=20
Tony Done

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<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>The recent thread on cedar tops got me=20
thinking:</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Which luthiers make nylon string guitars with =
necks=20
similar to flattops ie 1 3/4", modern contour? Websites?</FONT></DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial>Thanks</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT face=3DArial><BR>-- <BR>Tony Done</FONT></DIV></BODY></HTML>

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From: T-bone <dorgan@fltg...>
Subject: Re: Nylon string flattops
Date: Thu, 07 Feb 2002 22:44:40 -0500
Organization: Huh?

Tony Done wrote:
>
> The recent thread on cedar tops got me thinking:
>
> Which luthiers make nylon string guitars with necks similar to
> flattops ie 1 3/4", modern contour? Websites?
>
> Thanks
>
> --
Breedlove does.
I don't have the web address but a search will turn it up quickly.
Bob Dorgan

From: Violindave <violindave@aol...>
Subject: Re: Nylon string flattops
Date: 08 Feb 2002 03:54:29 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com

Paul McGill can, Mcgill Guitars. No website but you can email him at
<Conecaster@AOL...>

Marc Antoine, Earl Klugh and Peter White all play his guitars. I believe he
can make the neck any width you want. He makes them custom for you. They sound
fantastic.

From: foldedpath <mbarrs@REMOVE-NOSPAM...>
Subject: Re: Nylon string flattops
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 04:16:36 GMT
Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing

>"Tony Done" <<tonydone@bigpond...>> wrote in message
news:WmH88.1970$<BE4.6185@newsfeeds...>...

> The recent thread on cedar tops got me thinking:
>
> Which luthiers make nylon string guitars with necks similar to
> flattops ie 1 3/4", modern contour? Websites?

Well, here are the guitars I'm personally lusting after:

Lowden Jazz S25J -- that's the one I want to buy some day. Search for it on
this web site:

http://lowdenguitars.com/home.htm

And if I hit the lottery and price is no object... a Paul McGill would be
first on my list:

http://www.mcgillguitars.com/

Followed closely by a Grimes nylon string

http://www.grimesguitars.com/models/hapa_nylon.html

Or maybe a Buscarino Cabaret:

http://www.buscarino.com/cabaret.htm

All of these guitars have a reputation for being very playable for people
coming from the steel string (and electric guitar) world. The Lowden is
"reasonably priced". The others are way out there... like other fine
handbuilt instruments, and you should be able to specify exactly what kind
of neck shape you want.

Good luck, and I hope I haven't induced a GAS attack.

From: Alan Marshall <bromley@northworthy...>
Subject: Re: Nylon string flattops
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 09:58:39 +0000

On Fri, 8 Feb 2002 13:15:36 +1000, "Tony Done" <<tonydone@bigpond...>>
wrote:

>The recent thread on cedar tops got me thinking:
>
>Which luthiers make nylon string guitars with necks similar to flattops ie 1 3/4", modern contour? Websites?
>
>Thanks

Me

Best Wishes, --
Alan Marshall
web site http://www.northworthy.com
e-mail <info@northworthy...>

From: Chris Callahan <chrisc@blueridge...>
Subject: Re: Nylon string flattops
Date: Fri, 8 Feb 2002 06:20:16 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com

Roy McAlister is commissioned to build me a classical with a 1 7/8 inch
neck, so I would think he'd go for the 13/4 inch neck.

Chris
"Alan Marshall" <<bromley@northworthy...>> wrote in message
news:<l8876usiqglsnd3kvhot9nbc43pk3krdgb@4ax...>...
> On Fri, 8 Feb 2002 13:15:36 +1000, "Tony Done" <<tonydone@bigpond...>>
> wrote:
>
> >The recent thread on cedar tops got me thinking:
> >
> >Which luthiers make nylon string guitars with necks similar to flattops
ie 1 3/4", modern contour? Websites?
> >
> >Thanks
>
> Me
>
> Best Wishes, --
> Alan Marshall
> web site http://www.northworthy.com
> e-mail <info@northworthy...>

From: David Kilpatrick <iconmags@btconnect...>
Subject: Re: Nylon string flattops
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 10:38:59 +0000

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in article WmH88.1970$<BE4.6185@newsfeeds...>, Tony Done at
<tonydone@bigpond...> wrote on 8/2/02 3:15 AM:

The recent thread on cedar tops got me thinking:

Which luthiers make nylon string guitars with necks similar to flattops ie 1
3/4", modern contour? Websites?

Lowden. I've got two - a 1980s Japanese made S-5FN (flamenco nylon, or
fan-braced nylon, depending on who you believe - it is both anyway) and a
1994 S25J. The S-5FN is destined for a new owner in the States but will have
to wait until May when we've got a week in New Orleans, it can come with me
by hand. The S25J is sufficient for my needs although the two have
completely different sounds and the older, larger instrument is closer to
'classical' in feel.

The neck is not, however, 1-3/4 which is roughly 45mm. It's more like 48mm
(Lowdens have wider nuts anyway, even the steel string ones, so it feels
just right for someone used to Lowden - the extra width just takes care of
the fatter strings and the extra flexibility they have). I paid $1,700 for
mine new but that was a very low price due to dealer problems selling the
guitar, it should have been $2,300 and the list price is over $3,000 now in
the States. I would give up the S25J for anything because it is a superb
recording guitar and the built-in piezo under saddle has awesome gain and
output for stage use (and a hard edge, of course, which you need sometimes -
and when you don't it's better to use a mike anyway). The S25J is cedar top,
Indian rosewood body but I know a few people who have custom variants.

The Spanish makers Ramirez and Alhambra both offer really affordable hybrids
with cutaways and built-in Fishman electrics. The necks are not as radiussed
as Lowden but the sound is much closer to a normal classical (the S25J is a
very throaty, complex, dark instrument for a nylon string).

I quite like the standard Yamaha APX model with the skinny body and narrow
neck, but nylon strings. Although it isn't luthier quality by any means the
sound when amped is good. The Takamine model is not so useful because they
don't seem to have got the balance of action, fret type and scale length
right; it's not very accurate and is too sensitive to string pressure, which
steel string players like me make worse (the Lowden is a bit picky on
pressure too and demands really high tension strings). The best stage sound
I have ever heard is from the Godin nylon string electric, sad to say!
Totally artificial guitar, absolutely authentic range of sounds - classical,
flamenco, gipsy jazz, the lot. Presumably useless unplugged.

David

--MS_Mac_OE_3096009540_8176753_MIME_Part
Content-type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII"
Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Re: Nylon string flattops in article WmH88.1970$BE4.6185@newsfeeds.bigpond.com, Tony Done at tonydone= @bigpond.com wrote on 8/2/02 3:15 AM:

The recent thread on cedar tops got me think= ing:

Which luthiers make nylon string guitars with necks simi= lar to flattops ie 1 3/4", modern contour? Websites?

Lowden. I've got two - a 1980s Japanese mad= e S-5FN (flamenco nylon, or fan-braced nylon, depending on who you believe -= it is both anyway) and a 1994 S25J. The S-5FN is destined for a new owner i= n the States but will have to wait until May when we've got a week in New Or= leans, it can come with me by hand. The S25J is sufficient for my needs alth= ough the two have completely different sounds and the older, larger instrume= nt is closer to 'classical' in feel.

The neck is not, however, 1-3/4 which is roughly 45mm. It's more like 48mm = (Lowdens have wider nuts anyway, even the steel string ones, so it feels jus= t right for someone used to Lowden - the extra width just takes care of the = fatter strings and the extra flexibility they have). I paid $1,700 for mine = new but that was a very low price due to dealer problems selling the guitar,= it should have been $2,300 and the list price is over $3,000 now in the Sta= tes. I would give up the S25J for anything because it is a superb recording = guitar and the built-in piezo under saddle has awesome gain and output for s= tage use (and a hard edge, of course, which you need sometimes - and when yo= u don't it's better to use a mike anyway). The S25J is cedar top, Indian ros= ewood body but I know a few people who have custom variants.

The Spanish makers Ramirez and Alhambra both offer really affordable hybrid= s with cutaways and built-in Fishman electrics. The necks are not as radiuss= ed as Lowden but the sound is much closer to a normal classical (the S25J is= a very throaty, complex, dark instrument for a nylon string).

I quite like the standard Yamaha APX model with the skinny body and narrow = neck, but nylon strings. Although it isn't luthier quality by any means the = sound when amped is good. The Takamine model is not so useful because they d= on't seem to have got the balance of action, fret type and scale length righ= t; it's not very accurate and is too sensitive to string pressure, which ste= el string players like me make worse (the Lowden is a bit picky on pressure = too and demands really high tension strings). The best stage sound I have ev= er heard is from the Godin nylon string electric, sad to say! Totally artifi= cial guitar, absolutely authentic range of sounds - classical, flamenco, gip= sy jazz, the lot. Presumably useless unplugged.

David

--MS_Mac_OE_3096009540_8176753_MIME_Part--

From: Francis Guidry <fguidry@yahoo...>
Subject: Re: Nylon string flattops
Date: 8 Feb 2002 05:02:24 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com/

"Tony Done" <<tonydone@bigpond...>> wrote in message news:<WmH88.1970$<BE4.6185@newsfeeds...>>...
> The recent thread on cedar tops got me thinking:
>
> Which luthiers make nylon string guitars with necks similar to flattops
> ie 1 3/4", modern contour? Websites?
>
> Thanks

Wechter has three nylon string models on their website.

http://www.wechterguitars.com/models/index.htm

Fran

From: Mike Rose <mmrose@comcast...>
Subject: Re: Nylon string flattops
Date: Fri, 08 Feb 2002 18:41:47 GMT
Organization: Excite@Home - The Leader in Broadband http://home.com/faster

Taylor ( http://www.taylorguitars.com/ ) has just introduced a whole series
of nylon string guitars. They are targeted for steel string players and
feature a compromise neck width of 1 7/8",

"the NS72ce (East Indian rosewood back/sides, Western red cedar top, gloss
finish, Fishman Prefix ProBlend)."

"The 1-7/8-inch neck has a 20-inch fretboard radius, crowned by a slotted
peghead, and features a variation on Taylor's patented NT neck joint."

More at ( http://www.taylorguitars.com/news/products.html#prod2 )

The suggested retail prices sure look nice to me, probably a very good
value. I haven't played one yet (I want to budget for it first).

Mike Rose (Taylor 714ce EIR/Cedar)

"Tony Done" <<tonydone@bigpond...>> wrote in message
news:WmH88.1970$<BE4.6185@newsfeeds...>...
The recent thread on cedar tops got me thinking:

Which luthiers make nylon string guitars with necks similar to flattops ie 1
3/4", modern contour? Websites?

Thanks

--
Tony Done

Godin [7]

From: Dan Hayton <dan_hayton@hotmail...>
Subject: Re: Godin
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 01:37:19 GMT
Organization: WebUseNet Corp. http://corp.webusenet.com - ReInventing the UseNet

"Tony" <<tonybrez@yahooNOSPAM...>> wrote in
news:a515qe$sn1$<1@news1...>:

> Hi All,
>
> I'm new here. Has the topic or concept of Godin guitars come up ?
> I'm very interested in any opinions, experience with or thoughts about
> these guitars.
>
...
>
> Thanks in advance for any advice.
>
> Tony
>
Hi Tony,

I have a Multiac Nylon Duet, which is a very nice-sounding nylon guitar.

It has the L.R. Baggs pickup system. I play it through a Laney LA60C
acoustic amp. I haven't hooked up the synth output yet, so I don't know
what that sounds like.

I have read in the past there were some intonation issues with earlier
models of Godin, but I don't know which ones. I have no problems with
mine.

Hope this helps,

-Dan

From: CyberSerf <nospam.cybrserf@sympatico...>
Subject: Re: Godin
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2002 21:27:01 -0500
Organization: Bell Sympatico

Tony,

I have a dealer nearby, so I get to play alot of Godin guitars (including a
"Glissintar" or some such...fretless beast with seven strings...frightfully
difficult to play, but once you got used to it, man...think of the slide
work you could painlessly get away with!). I don't think much of their
acoustic sound, but they have a very decent piezo and it translates nicely
through a PA or acoustic amp. All in all, I have to say that in workmanship
and quality of materials, they are typically a cut above the pack. I own an
LGX and find it to be the most versatile instrument I own (I think someone
else already described it)...I play it through ab A/B with the A sending the
signal to a Marshall AS50R and the B sending the signal to a Fender Twin
Reverb...Acoustic, Electric or a controllable blend of the two! You would
want the LGXSA (?) which has the added synth hook up...no experience there
I'm afraid, but the LGX is a must try...go out some Saturday and take the
drive.

Cheers, CS

--
---
The opinions, comments, and advice offered by me here are mine alone.
As such, they carry as much weight as a feather in a snow storm.

Tony <<tonybrez@yahooNOSPAM...>> wrote in message
news:a515qe$sn1$<1@news1...>...
> Hi All,
>
> I'm new here. Has the topic or concept of Godin guitars come up ?
> I'm very interested in any opinions, experience with or thoughts about
> these guitars.
>
> I've been an electric player for the first 12 years of my guitar existence
> and have been playing acoustics... steel and nylon strings for the last
> 6 years. While I played electric I acquired a Roland VG-8 guitar modeling
> processor. I would like to access this unit again with possibly a Godin.
>
> I live in the sticks and the nearest store to try out a few Godins is
about
> 70 miles.
>
> Thanks in advance for any advice.
>
> Tony
>
>
>

From: <minette@minn...>
Subject: Re: Godin
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 03:51:06 GMT
Organization: Cleardata Communications

I have an older Acousticaster that I've been quite happy with in its
limited niche. Workmanship is certainly very good. I've had no
problems whatsoever with it. Sounds quite nice through my ultrasound
in a processed sort of way -- no one would mistake it for a real
acoustic guitar -- but it does play quite slickly.

On Wed, 20 Feb 2002 16:52:46 -0500, "Tony" <<tonybrez@yahooNOSPAM...>>
wrote:

>Hi All,
>
>I'm new here. Has the topic or concept of Godin guitars come up ?
>I'm very interested in any opinions, experience with or thoughts about
>these guitars.
>
>I've been an electric player for the first 12 years of my guitar existence
>and have been playing acoustics... steel and nylon strings for the last
>6 years. While I played electric I acquired a Roland VG-8 guitar modeling
>processor. I would like to access this unit again with possibly a Godin.
>
>I live in the sticks and the nearest store to try out a few Godins is about
>70 miles.
>
>Thanks in advance for any advice.
>
>Tony
>
>
>

Yeah, I'm an attorney, but everyone needs a day job.

From: Bob N <prevent@spam...>
Subject: Re: Godin
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 04:46:27 GMT
Organization: Prodigy Internet http://www.prodigy.com

I played a fretless 11-string Godin nylon recently. It was a ton of fun to
play, sliding around on the doubled strings. No prizewinner cosmetically,
but it sure made cool sounds and felt great for under 800 bucks.

Bob

From: Gary Hall <ahall@tusco...>
Subject: Re: Godin
Date: 21 Feb 2002 10:04:05 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com/

"Tony" <<tonybrez@yahooNOSPAM...>> wrote in message news:<a515qe$sn1$<1@news1...>>...
> Hi All,
>
> I'm new here. Has the topic or concept of Godin guitars come up ?
> I'm very interested in any opinions, experience with or thoughts about
> these guitars.
>
> I've been an electric player for the first 12 years of my guitar existence
> and have been playing acoustics... steel and nylon strings for the last
> 6 years. While I played electric I acquired a Roland VG-8 guitar modeling
> processor. I would like to access this unit again with possibly a Godin.
>
> I live in the sticks and the nearest store to try out a few Godins is about
> 70 miles.
>
> Thanks in advance for any advice.
>
> Tony

Tony,

My own opinion is that the nylon string multiacs sound better. I say
that as a steel string multiac (synth access model) owner who's
briefly owned a nylon string Multiac Grand Concert Duet model (Baggs
electronics, no synth access) and tried out a regular nylon string
Multiac with synth access, well as a duet model steel string Multiac,
at Woodsy's Music in Kent, OH.

My own Multiac is very feedback resistant and has a low action which
plays easily and fingerpicks well. The RMC pickups are very
well-balanced and dynamically responsive. The RMC pickup with onboard
preamp has a very strong, clean output.

I've used the guitar with a Roland GR-33 guitar synth and it does seem
to track well, but I have no basis of comparison to confirm the
often-heard comment that it has surperior tracking to a guitar fitted
with Roland's GK-2AH synth pickup.

I do have several "issues" with this guitar, however. It sounds very
brittle and harsh with hard strumming, despite considerable EQing with
a Baggs PADI. (The PADI has been more effective for me than the
BASS/MID/TREBLE controls on the guitar's preamp. The PADI has
sweepable mids {I cut generously at 1.5K}, a presence control and a
sweepable bass notch which allows one to notch down the muddy
frequecies {200-250 Hz) while cranking up the low bass.) Part of the
problem, I'm sure, is that the guitar's action is too low for hard
strumming. I tried to shim the mini saddles once (with brass shims
that Godin sent me), but the saddles were close to popping out of the
bridge slot once shimmed. I decided to leave well-enough alone and
removed the shims.

My biggest issue with the guitar is the tone (after optimum EQing).
Even when amplified, it doesn't come close to sounding like a good
acoustic amplified. I find the high end to be especially cheesy
sounding. I believe that's because the guitar is intentionally
designed to be strong on fundamentals and weak on overtones (for
better synth tracking, they say). In any event, I believe that the
nylon string Multiac comes closer to sounding like a real classical
when amplified. I wish that I still had the Grand Concert Multiac to
try with the new Yamaha AG Stomp preamp that I've been using lately.
The Stomp makes my Chet Atkins CE electric classical (another hybrid
guitar) sound very rich. It doen't doesn't do enough (to make much
deference) for the steel string Multiac, however.

By the way, if you still think that you'd like a steel string Multiac
after reading "the good, the bad and the ugly" above, mine will be for
sale soon.
Just don't believe the hype that it has a superior plugged in sound.
It's mainly useful for synth and high volume situations where one
needs an acoustic sound.

Hope that helps,
Gary hall

From: Jim McCrain <jim@mccrain...>
Subject: Re: Godin
Date: Thu, 21 Feb 2002 13:12:07 -0600
Organization: Walrus Sound Productions

Gary Hall wrote:

> Just don't believe the hype that it has a superior plugged in sound.
> It's mainly useful for synth and high volume situations where one
> needs an acoustic sound.

Gary is right on with this assessment, at least in my opinion. I use my Godin Steal String
Multiac whenever I am playing in a band/group arrangement and I am not the only acoustic
guitar player. I don't like to use the Godin as a "solo" or as the only acoustic in a group
as it doesn't have a "pure" acoustic sound. Still, when blended with other instruments, it
works quite nicely.

Of course, when I add the Roland GR-33 synth to the mix, it takes on a completely different
manner and usage. If the music I am playing relies heavily on the synthesizer sounds, then
the "acoustic" sound blended in sounds fine. If the synth is just used to add "depth" to the
acoustic sounds, then I still prefer a traditional acoustic instrument.

As for the Godin tracking better than a guitar with the Roland GK2A pickup, I have to agree.
I have had both, and tried them both with the Roland GR-30 and GR-33. The Godin with the RMC
pickup works much better and is much more accurate than the GK2A.

All in all, I really enjoy using my Godin and the GR-33. I use them primarily for recording,
though, so the acoustic portion is usually recorded with a different guitar, and then the
synth is added without the "acoustic" signal from the Godin.

Hope some of this helps!

Jim McCrain

Taylor classical review [7]

From: Robert <rtmca@yahoo...>
Subject: Taylor classical review
Date: 23 Mar 2002 04:53:52 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com/

In a word--
YUCK
In a few words--
What are they thinking, who are they foolin'?
I have an ear for classicals and am not just blowing out my
port vent.
The 2 Taylor classicals I sampled yesterday at a local shop --one
almost 2K the other over 3K sounded like 150 dollar Yamahas. I know
the sound of a 150 Yamaha because for 5 years most of my 40 plus per
year classical guitar students played em. Ironically, the best
sounding guitars there were the 2K Yamaha
grand concerts. Who's Taylor fooling?? What are they thinking?? They
should stick to steel strings. Who'd buy one of these classicals
except someone who just trusts Taylor? *They do look good.
Robert McArthur

From: Dick Schneiders <dickschnei@aol...>
Subject: Re: Taylor classical review
Date: 23 Mar 2002 14:36:40 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com

Robert,

I played one of the maple bodied ones a month or so ago and agree totally with
everything you said here.

I am a bit puzzled by the prices you quoted, though. The one I played was
priced at $2600. This is at a dealer that basically sticks to list prices.
What were the two that you played that were priced at "almost 2K" and "over
3K"? This dealer is getting one of the rosewood ones in soon, but said that it
would be priced the same as the maple one. I didn't realize that they were
producing nylon stringed guitars at such different price points. Did the
cheaper one not have any electronics on it?

It was a very pretty guitar, though.

Dick Schneiders

>In a word--
>YUCK
>In a few words--
>What are they thinking, who are they foolin'?
>I have an ear for classicals and am not just blowing out my
>port vent.
>The 2 Taylor classicals I sampled yesterday at a local shop --one
>almost 2K the other over 3K sounded like 150 dollar Yamahas. I know
>the sound of a 150 Yamaha because for 5 years most of my 40 plus per
>year classical guitar students played em. Ironically, the best
>sounding guitars there were the 2K Yamaha
>grand concerts. Who's Taylor fooling?? What are they thinking?? They
>should stick to steel strings. Who'd buy one of these classicals
>except someone who just trusts Taylor? *They do look good.
>Robert McArthur
>
>
>
>
>
>

From: Al Schlimm <dvresearch@earthlink...>
Subject: Re: Taylor classical review
Date: Mon, 25 Mar 2002 14:12:38 GMT
Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net

I have to agree. They are hugely disappointing guitars if you've ever even
heard an actual classical guitar (or a decent non-classical nylon string).

From: Al Schlimm <dvresearch@earthlink...>
Subject: Re: Taylor classical review
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 14:40:01 GMT
Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net

I play lots of electric, I have studied and played classical, and I play
steel string acoustic. I am a hybrid player if there ever was one. For a
long time I was salivating in anticipation of the Taylor nylons. I went
into the store with the cash practically hanging out of my pocket. And I
knew in three or four notes that the Taylors wouldn't cut it. They're
beautiful to look at, the necks aren't bad, but they have no projection and
the trebles have no life in them at all. I've been searching for the right
hybrid classical for years was very disappointed. Taylor makes some nice
guitars, but I think they're going to have to go back to the drawing board
on this line. I haven't met one guitar player who actually liked them. The
salespeople tried to tell me that "they sound really good amplified." That
won't cut it. Most of us want it to sound good acoustically first.

From: Margaret Wilson <catmewtoo@nospam...>
Subject: Re: Taylor classical review
Date: Tue, 26 Mar 2002 10:08:41 -0500
Organization: Michigan State University

Try the Carvin CL450. My search for a hybrid classical has ended.

Regards,

Margaret

"Al Schlimm" <<dvresearch@earthlink...>> wrote in message
news:5L%n8.1899$<Ya2.86233@newsread1...>...
> I play lots of electric, I have studied and played classical, and I play
> steel string acoustic. I am a hybrid player if there ever was one. For a
> long time I was salivating in anticipation of the Taylor nylons. I went
> into the store with the cash practically hanging out of my pocket. And I
> knew in three or four notes that the Taylors wouldn't cut it. They're
> beautiful to look at, the necks aren't bad, but they have no projection
and
> the trebles have no life in them at all. I've been searching for the
right
> hybrid classical for years was very disappointed. Taylor makes some nice
> guitars, but I think they're going to have to go back to the drawing board
> on this line. I haven't met one guitar player who actually liked them.
The
> salespeople tried to tell me that "they sound really good amplified."
That
> won't cut it. Most of us want it to sound good acoustically first.
>
>

From: DEidelberg <deidelberg@aol...>
Subject: Re: Taylor classical review
Date: 28 Mar 2002 15:55:09 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com

My acoustic duo partner bought one of the rosewood ones. I suggested he return
it and get a much cheaper one made a LaSiDo under the La Patrie name (I think
that's the name). But, he likes the Taylor and it's his money. He
particularly likes the fingerboard width and the shape. It did punch through
the mix very well when using the onboard blend (piezo/sbt) system.

David

From: RWS880 <rws880@aol...>
Subject: Re: Taylor classical review
Date: 29 Mar 2002 20:02:45 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com

I Played the cutaway model through ans SWR California blonde and was blown
away. The acoustic sound on the Taylor was kind of a joke, but plugged in, the
thing sounded unbelivable. It could of been the amp too, since i had never
played through an SWR before, but the combination was fantastic. Great for jazz
and brazillian stuff, mabye not a concert classical guitar.
rob

Cheap Czech classicals in UK

From: David Kilpatrick <iconmags@btconnect...>
Subject: Cheap Czech classicals in UK
Date: Sat, 23 Mar 2002 22:55:00 +0000

I just tried a �150 ($225) Czech made classical in Alnwick this afternoon.
This is a stunningly good instrument and I should have bought it outright
(but I don't need it!). It is solid rosewood with a solid cedar top and I
checked it all through - no lies - this is solid wood and well made and
sounds fantastic. The action at the nut was high, and the nut was plastic,
same for the bridge saddle - I would replace both and lower the action a
good deal. However, even with this high action the intonation was only a
tiny bit sharp on the basses, meaning that once lowered it would be spot on.
Tuners, finish etc were all good quality with a tiny bit of lacquer missing
from the heel joint.

It blew away a more expensive, laminated body Spanish Admira and also looked
much better. I would hate to say it but it may actually be 'better' than my
Lowden S-25J in terms of 'classical' sound and not too dissimilar in tone
because of the woods.

If the Czech makers are building to this standard from solid woods, watch
out for steel strings. I tried some Czech stuff in Germany two years ago and
found it poor. This is entirely different.

Incidentally, Words & Music in Alnwick, the store which had this, also
stocks Newtone strings at �5.95 per set, buy ten sets get one free, and
sends post free in the UK. I just bought ten sets so they are a bit short
now on 12-52s!

David

------------------------------------------
Icon magazines: http://www.freelancephotographer.co.uk/
Music CDs and tracks: http://www.mp3.com/DavidKilpatrick
Personal website: http://www.maxwellplace.demon.co.uk/pandemonium/
email - either <iconmags@btconnect...> or <david@maxwellplace...>

Looking for inexpensive Classical Guitar advice [7]

From: Robert <rtmca@yahoo...>
Subject: Re: Looking for inexpensive Classical Guitar advice
Date: 31 Mar 2002 17:53:48 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com/

<amost2001@aol...> (AMost2001) wrote in message news:<<20020331110906.14077.00000819@mb-ce...>>...
> Committed one of the ultimate musician sins...pawned a decent sounding guitar &
> now it's history. So I'm looking for a very inexpensive Classical Guitar. Any
> recommendations? Solid top is probably about all I can expect. I'm not a
> beginner although I act like one at times. I've played some La Patries, but
> I'm not knocked out by them. They sound and feel weird...to me. looking for
> soemthing alittle more traditional sounding/looking. Under $500.00 I'm
> thinking.thanks.
> My tunes at:
> http://www.geocities.com/mondoslugness

There are several out there--one I like a lot is the Yamaha GD10C. It
is one of their "handmade" cedar top models and sounds absolutely
great. They list for about $1000 but I have seen them go in shops for
$595. A bit over 500 but these particular Yamahas are not like the
other series Yamahas. They play and sound more like the expensive
classicals.
Robert McArthur

From: Francis Guidry <fguidry@yahoo...>
Subject: Re: Looking for inexpensive Classical Guitar advice
Date: 1 Apr 2002 03:15:28 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com/

<amost2001@aol...> (AMost2001) wrote in message news:<<20020331110906.14077.00000819@mb-ce...>>...
> Committed one of the ultimate musician sins...pawned a decent sounding guitar &
> now it's history. So I'm looking for a very inexpensive Classical Guitar. Any
> recommendations? Solid top is probably about all I can expect. I'm not a
> beginner although I act like one at times. I've played some La Patries, but
> I'm not knocked out by them. They sound and feel weird...to me. looking for
> soemthing alittle more traditional sounding/looking. Under $500.00 I'm
> thinking.thanks.
> My tunes at:
> http://www.geocities.com/mondoslugness

Over in the classical guitar section of the Acoustic Guitar Magazine
discussion forum, the hot topic for reasonably priced classicals is
the Lucida Concerto. They are apparently available again, and one
vendor who has them is Southwest Guitar Studion
(http://www.southwestguitar.com/). This is a Spanish made guitar in
all solid woods that I believe fits your budget.

Fran

From: Dick Schneiders <dickschnei@aol...>
Subject: Re: Looking for inexpensive Classical Guitar advice
Date: 01 Apr 2002 12:38:01 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com

>Over in the classical guitar section of the Acoustic Guitar Magazine
>discussion forum, the hot topic for reasonably priced classicals is
>the Lucida Concerto. They are apparently available again, and one
>vendor who has them is Southwest Guitar Studion
>(http://www.southwestguitar.com/). This is a Spanish made guitar in
>all solid woods that I believe fits your budget.
>
>Fran

These are wonderful guitars for the money>

I have one of the flamenco versions, the Lucida Artista Picado, and it too is
all solid woods with a wonderful sound. There is one of these guitars
currently on eBay with a Buy It Now price of under $400. The auction add does
not have the model or brand name in the title, so it is difficult to locate
with a search. The auction title said something like "all solid wood flamenco
guitar".

Whatever you do, do not buy a Lucida guitar unless it has the name Artista
somewhere in the model name. The Artista models are solid wood, either just
the top or the entire body, and the other models are poorly made, cheap Chinese
copies.

Dick Schneiders

From: Jeff Carter <jeffretrac@aol...>
Subject: Re: Looking for inexpensive Classical Guitar advice
Date: 01 Apr 2002 14:48:32 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com

>Over in the classical guitar section of the Acoustic Guitar Magazine
>discussion forum, the hot topic for reasonably priced classicals is
>the Lucida Concerto. They are apparently available again, and one
>vendor who has them is Southwest Guitar Studion
>(http://www.southwestguitar.com/). This is a Spanish made guitar in
>all solid woods that I believe fits your budget.
>
>Fran

I've only played one of these LA Concertos, but was totally blown away by the
bang-for-the-buck ratio. The one I played had good tone and balance, and
excellent volume. It easily rivaled guitars costing 3x as much. The tuners are
cheap stamped jobs, but you could put on a set of Schaller Hausers for $40 and
have yourself a very nice instrument.

--Jeff

From: jobro <jobroAT@compuserveDOT...>
Subject: Re: Looking for inexpensive Classical Guitar advice
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 16:22:53 -0900
Organization: CompuServe Interactive Services

AMost2001 <<amost2001@aol...>> wrote in message
news:<20020331110906.14077.00000819@mb-ce...>...
> Committed one of the ultimate musician sins...pawned a decent sounding
guitar &
> now it's history. So I'm looking for a very inexpensive Classical Guitar.
Any
> recommendations? Solid top is probably about all I can expect. I'm not a
> beginner although I act like one at times. I've played some La Patries,
but
> I'm not knocked out by them. They sound and feel weird...to me. looking
for
> soemthing alittle more traditional sounding/looking. Under $500.00 I'm
> thinking.thanks.
> My tunes at:
> http://www.geocities.com/mondoslugness

I hate it when people make recommendations that outside of your price range,
but here ya go (but it's close!!).

I have an Artista Segovia that I bought from the Rosewood Guitar in Seattle
several years ago for around $575 w/ hsc and a half dozen assorted sets of
strings (which ain't cheap). It is a very nice playing and sounding guitar
and when I bought it compared very favorably to guitars costing twice as
much in that store and others that I played at that time. Mine has a solid
cedar top and lam. rosewood b/s. The tuners aren't the best in the world,
but they have been doing just fine for the last 8 years. It is also a very
nice looking guitar with excellent fit and finish - gloss. I hadn't played
it in a while, but strung it up with some new strings last week so my
daughter could give it a whirl and I've been playing it every day since. It
really sounds nice.

I just checked the Rosewood Guitar website
http://www.halcyon.com/rosewood/page2.html and see they still carry them for
about the same price ($579). I know they do mail order because I at first
bought a used Tatay from them and later returned in person it and exchanged
it for this one. I didn't like the neck on the Tatay and frankly, the
Artista sounded better - more balanced and louder.

I recommend this shop very highly - great staff, very helpful and not at all
snooty towards those of us who aren't buying the $10K concert guitars.

Dan Johnson

From: David Wolfe <dwolfman@mindspring...>
Subject: Re: Looking for inexpensive Classical Guitar advice
Date: Mon, 1 Apr 2002 19:24:48 -0700
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises

I have a Manuel Rodriguez 'B' Model I would part with for about $500 - $550.
It has a killer tone, sweet action and comes with a built in Baggs P/U -
also a SKB hardshell case. Very good shape..
Contact me offline ..

'Denver' Dave Wolfe

"AMost2001" <<amost2001@aol...>> wrote in message > Committed one of the
ultimate musician sins...pawned a decent sounding guitar &
> now it's history. So I'm looking for a very inexpensive Classical Guitar.
Any
> recommendations? Solid top is probably about all I can expect. I'm not a
> beginner although I act like one at times. I've played some La Patries,
but
> I'm not knocked out by them. They sound and feel weird...to me. looking
for
> soemthing alittle more traditional sounding/looking. Under $500.00 I'm
> thinking.

From: Robert <rtmca@yahoo...>
Subject: Re: Looking for inexpensive Classical Guitar advice
Date: 2 Apr 2002 05:56:19 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com/

"David Wolfe" <<dwolfman@mindspring...>> wrote in message news:<a8b4r8$q66$<1@slb4...>>...
> I have a Manuel Rodriguez 'B' Model I would part with for about $500 - $550.
> It has a killer tone, sweet action and comes with a built in Baggs P/U -
> also a SKB hardshell case. Very good shape..
> Contact me offline ..
>
David--
I played this model. Nice guitar. Good deal.
Robert

Nylon strings? [4]

From: Gordon <gordon@121mktg...>
Subject: Re: Nylon strings?
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 18:04:44 GMT
Organization: Cox Communications

Hank,

I'm no expert but I played two Sands (which I love) at Kirk's store in
Laguna Beach the last time I was there. They were both strung up with
GHS La Classique wound 3rd, high tension sets. One was a Richard
Smith model and the other was actually Doyle Dykes' guitar which he
just traded in for a newer one. Kirk also told me these are the
strings Doyle uses. Both guitars were EASILY the best playing nylon
guitars I have ever played.

GL

From: Robert <rtmca@yahoo...>
Subject: Re: Nylon strings?
Date: 31 Mar 2002 17:50:45 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com/

<gordon@121mktg...> (Gordon) wrote in message news:<<3ca74ea1.81083371@news...>>...
> Hank,
>
> I'm no expert but I played two Sands (which I love) at Kirk's store in
> Laguna Beach the last time I was there. They were both strung up with
> GHS La Classique wound 3rd, high tension sets.
I've sampled, I believe, every classical string and keep coming back
to the La Classiques. They are very sweet. I use the unwound third.
Another great string with a strong fundamemntal but lacking in sweet
overtones is the Savarez Corum Alliance. For my $$, I prefer the GHS
La Classique, though. I think, though classical strings differ far
more than steel strings and the proper player and guitar match with
the strings bears some personal research.
Robert

From: misifus <rseibert@cox-internet...>
Subject: Re: Nylon strings?
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 20:50:51 -0600
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com

Hank, you might try Thomastik-Infeld. I've tried the "Classic C"
and found them to be a very high tension string. T-I makes a
variety of synthetic material strings for the nylon guitar
market. John Pearce offers some which are quite similar. I seem
to recall that he said he was involved with T-I in the
development of their strings. These strings give a sound more
like a cross between nylon and steel. They're very tough, I
would guess that they might stand up to your attack.
    -Ralph
--
Misifus
Ralph Seibert
mailto:<rseibert@cox-internet...>
http://www.oakcottage-TX.com

From: Jonny Durango <jonnydurango1NOSPAM@PLEASEattbi...>
Subject: Re: Nylon strings?
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 09:23:21 GMT
Organization: AT&T Broadband

I play a lot of flamenco and I prefer savarez "very high tension" nylon
strings. They are bright and trebly and have tons of projection w/o buzzing
a lot. I have also heard La Bellas are the best nylon strings you can buy
but I have not yet had the chance to try them.

--

J. Durango

"Self-restraint enhances one's energy. Self-restraint is said to be sacred.
The man of self-restraint becomes sinless and fearless and wins great
results. One that is self-restrained sleeps happily and wakes happily. He
sojourns happily in the world and his mind always remains cheerful. Every
kind of excitement is quietly controlled by self-restraint. One that is not
self-restrained fails in a similar endeavour." - The Mahabharata, Santi
Parva

"Hank Alinger" <<hoink@comcast...>> wrote in message
news:<3CA730A1.FC147812@comcast...>...
>
> Hello...
>
> Here's one for the nylon experts. What's the best, low-buzz,
> high-tension nylon string for an acoustic-eclectric (Kirk Sand) guitar?
> It's a buzzy with a thumb pick and heavy attack which I know I'm going
> to have to back off... :-)
>
> It has D'Addario Pro Arte' hard tension strings on it, which are decent,
> but it's buzzing a bit (most noticable unplugged of course). Whatever
> came off it was better. (a mystery to me)
>
> thanks,
>
> Hank
>
>

fingerpicker goes classical > string question?? [7]

From: mtmikey <mtmikey@hotmail...>
Subject: fingerpicker goes classical > string question??
Date: 31 Mar 2002 11:33:21 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com/

yesterday i broke down and bought a nylon string acoustic-electric
(yamaha cgx-171cca) while waiting for my custom taylor 612ce to be
built (blue!). i like the yamaha. it sounds nice. the yamaha has a 1
7/8" nut 19 frets and a 25 1/2" scale.

so... caveat = i'm a moron. i've looked at string tension charts and
am somewhat baffled. for my steel strings i've defaulted to
light-gauge d'addario phosphor bronzes, occasionally mixing a high and
low medium gauge e on various guitars. i prefer smaller-bodied
instruments and pretend to be a fingerstyle player (i could say
"aspire," but i suck, so there it is). no problemo so far.

now i'm looking at getting strings for the nylon string, and the
choices are stultifying to my eye. high tension? low tension? laser
select? clear? black? (looks cool...) silver? copper? brass?
composite? silverplated copper? polished? lightly polished? rectified?
copper wound on nylon? [brought to you mostly by d'addario's string
catalog.]

yikes.

so... could anyone give me a hand here? if you have a document you can
point me to to demystify i'm happy to look. i'm quite sure, having
searched the archive, that this has come up before... help!

for the record, i'm not too picky, i'm just looking for a full sound
with sustain, and am probably more interested in a "body" sound than a
"string-plucked" sound, if any of that makes sense. i was inspired to
pick up a nylon string after hearing ed gerhard's live album. i play
mostly celtic, travis, trad, and am in the process of noisily
annihilating easy classical studies at the moment. i am not a
classically trained player, which is likely obvious. to some, what i'm
saying is probably sacrilege.

oddball bonus questions:
1. i play in lots of open tunings. how many of you do this on a nylon
string? i don't drop things too low on the yamaha... she gets flabby.
2. ever use a capo on a nylon? what kind? i slapped a shubb on... just
curious.

pardon my ignorance.

thanks for any help!

best,
mkg

From: David Kilpatrick <iconmags2@btconnect...>
Subject: Re: fingerpicker goes classical > string question??
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 23:01:21 +0100

in article <6b6fafd3.0203311133.55a9a276@posting...>, mtmikey at
<mtmikey@hotmail...> wrote on 31/3/02 8:33 PM:

> yesterday i broke down and bought a nylon string acoustic-electric
> (yamaha cgx-171cca) while waiting for my custom taylor 612ce to be
> built (blue!). i like the yamaha. it sounds nice. the yamaha has a 1
> 7/8" nut 19 frets and a 25 1/2" scale.
>
Just get a set of High Tension or Extra High Tension D'Addario Pro Arte,
they are easily available and will give you the ability to tune to DADGAD or
drop D reliably. I personally always use Extra High Tension.

You've obviously seen La Bella string descriptions and the quick answer is
the most expensive sets, high tensions, with red or black nylon give the
cleanest sounds for celtic fingerpicking.

My own choice is Savarez with filament trebles wound in plastic, but they
are extremely hard to get and not all that nice to play as the trebles have
this ultra-fine winding which can squeak a bit under the finger (the sound
is much brighter than normal strings though).

The first track on my mp3.con page is typical of what they are like - on a
Lowden semi-classical, a bit larger and deeper body than the Yamaha. This is
using the Pickup the World sensor, not an undersaddle pickup.

David

http://www.mp3.com/davidkilpatrick

From: Margaret Wilson <catmewtoo@nospam...>
Subject: Re: fingerpicker goes classical > string question??
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 19:34:40 -0500
Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com

I'd start with a set of D'Addario high tension strings. You'll need the
higher tension on the narrow neck.

Regards,

Margaret

"mtmikey" <<mtmikey@hotmail...>> wrote in message
news:<6b6fafd3.0203311133.55a9a276@posting...>...
> yesterday i broke down and bought a nylon string acoustic-electric
> (yamaha cgx-171cca) while waiting for my custom taylor 612ce to be
> built (blue!). i like the yamaha. it sounds nice. the yamaha has a 1
> 7/8" nut 19 frets and a 25 1/2" scale.

From: misifus <rseibert@cox-internet...>
Subject: Re: fingerpicker goes classical > string question??
Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2002 20:57:44 -0600
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com

I've been using D'Addario Pro-Arte, Hard Tension. These are
laser selected, but that's not why I use them. I use them
because they sound good and play well, and because they're pretty
consistent in quality. I've found some brands of nylon strings
which aren't. That leads to tuning and intonation problems.
    -Ralph
--
Misifus
Ralph Seibert
mailto:<rseibert@cox-internet...>
http://www.oakcottage-TX.com

From: William D Clinger <cesura@qnci...>
Subject: Re: fingerpicker goes classical > string question??
Date: 31 Mar 2002 20:24:37 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com/

> so... could anyone give me a hand here? if you have a document you can
> point me to to demystify i'm happy to look.

Go to http://www.stringsbymail.com/ and click on "String Basics".

I use D'Addario Pro Arte Composite Normal Tension on my main classical
guitar, and Hannabach Carbon trebles with Pro Arte Composite basses on
my nylon-string folk guitar.

> 1. i play in lots of open tunings. how many of you do this on a nylon
> string? i don't drop things too low on the yamaha... she gets flabby.

I often leave one of my nylon-string guitars tuned to open-G, and
sometimes tune down to CGDGBD. You can't retune nylon strings as
often and as quickly as steel strings because it takes them longer
to settle down at the new tension.

> 2. ever use a capo on a nylon? what kind? i slapped a shubb on... just
> curious.

I use Shubb classical capos on my two classical guitars, but use
a Kyser on my nylon-string folk because a Shubb doesn't fit its
thicker neck as well as the Kyser.

Will

From: BrianMcCar <brianmccar@aol...>
Subject: Re: fingerpicker goes classical > string question??
Date: 01 Apr 2002 05:07:15 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com

My personal choices:

LaBella 2001: bright
Hannabach 815: mellow
D'Addario Pro Arte: in-between, dare I say "neutral"?

Carbon fiber and other nylon alternatives have not impressed me personally;
many others disagree.

One thing I have noticed from surfing the web is that so-called high, medium,
normal, extra-high etc. tensions are all over the place from one brand to
another. D'Addario "normal" is higher tension than LaBella "high". Hannabach
also runs higher than LaBella for the same description; I don't remember if
they're higher than D'Addario.

Why oh why can't they market them by the total string tension itself? "I'd
like a pack of D'Addario 87's, please!"

"We're out of those. How about LaBella 83's?"

(Numbers from memory and not exact in these examples.)

Brian McCarthy

From: Jonny Durango <jonnydurango1NOSPAM@PLEASEattbi...>
Subject: Re: fingerpicker goes classical > string question??
Date: Mon, 01 Apr 2002 11:41:32 GMT
Organization: AT&T Broadband

for sustain, "body< and prjection go w/ a good set of high tension
strings...the most common and prolly di'addario pro artes, but I like
Savarez and i've heard great things about La Bella.....as for your
fingerstyle, you should realize that it's a VERY hard technique to perfect.
It's not something you can just mess around with and sound decent like blues
or rock or even some jazz. You need to know your scales and chord comping
like a jazz player, your fingering/positioning like a flamenco player and
have the speed of albert lee. It's very easy to get discouraged playing this
style but if you keep at it you'll sound great!

--

J. Durango

"Self-restraint enhances one's energy. Self-restraint is said to be sacred.
The man of self-restraint becomes sinless and fearless and wins great
results. One that is self-restrained sleeps happily and wakes happily. He
sojourns happily in the world and his mind always remains cheerful. Every
kind of excitement is quietly controlled by self-restraint. One that is not
self-restrained fails in a similar endeavour." - The Mahabharata, Santi
Parva

"mtmikey" <<mtmikey@hotmail...>> wrote in message
news:<6b6fafd3.0203311133.55a9a276@posting...>...
> yesterday i broke down and bought a nylon string acoustic-electric
> (yamaha cgx-171cca) while waiting for my custom taylor 612ce to be
> built (blue!). i like the yamaha. it sounds nice. the yamaha has a 1
> 7/8" nut 19 frets and a 25 1/2" scale.
>
> so... caveat = i'm a moron. i've looked at string tension charts and
> am somewhat baffled. for my steel strings i've defaulted to
> light-gauge d'addario phosphor bronzes, occasionally mixing a high and
> low medium gauge e on various guitars. i prefer smaller-bodied
> instruments and pretend to be a fingerstyle player (i could say
> "aspire," but i suck, so there it is). no problemo so far.
>
> now i'm looking at getting strings for the nylon string, and the
> choices are stultifying to my eye. high tension? low tension? laser
> select? clear? black? (looks cool...) silver? copper? brass?
> composite? silverplated copper? polished? lightly polished? rectified?
> copper wound on nylon? [brought to you mostly by d'addario's string
> catalog.]
>
> yikes.
>
> so... could anyone give me a hand here? if you have a document you can
> point me to to demystify i'm happy to look. i'm quite sure, having
> searched the archive, that this has come up before... help!
>
> for the record, i'm not too picky, i'm just looking for a full sound
> with sustain, and am probably more interested in a "body" sound than a
> "string-plucked" sound, if any of that makes sense. i was inspired to
> pick up a nylon string after hearing ed gerhard's live album. i play
> mostly celtic, travis, trad, and am in the process of noisily
> annihilating easy classical studies at the moment. i am not a
> classically trained player, which is likely obvious. to some, what i'm
> saying is probably sacrilege.
>
> oddball bonus questions:
> 1. i play in lots of open tunings. how many of you do this on a nylon
> string? i don't drop things too low on the yamaha... she gets flabby.
> 2. ever use a capo on a nylon? what kind? i slapped a shubb on... just
> curious.
>
> pardon my ignorance.
>
> thanks for any help!
>
> best,
> mkg

Jose Ramirez guitar choice [2]

From: Robert <rtmca@yahoo...>
Subject: Re: Jose Ramirez guitar choice
Date: 9 Apr 2002 06:23:06 -0700
Organization: http://groups.google.com/

Brian--

The only electroacoustic is the "Marcel Dadi--a R-2 model with a
fishman pickup.
It has plywood back and sides. Avoid.
The best Ramirez is the Ia tradicional, rtails for $8,000. The next
lower in line, which I have and which I recommend, is the 4E. It is
hand made from master grade woods. You might be able to get it at the
shop for in the high $2000s. Forget the non-6 strings (didn't know
Ramirez made 8 strings) These are specialized instruments for
extremely advanced (and quirky) players. Avoid the "R" series. They
are actually made at a competitors factory with the Ramirez label in
them.
Robert

From: Jeff Carter <jeffretrac@aol...>
Subject: Re: Jose Ramirez guitar choice
Date: 09 Apr 2002 15:54:10 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com

>Avoid the "R" series. They
>are actually made at a competitors factory with the Ramirez label in
>them.

It is my understanding that both student lines, "R" and "E", are outsourced and
built to Ramirez specs. Alhambra is said to build the E series, and Raimundo
the R. You can verify this with their US distributor, GSI, who will confirm
that both lines are built elsewhere, but will not divulge the maker(s).

godin multiac...opinions? [6]

From: RandPinc <randpinc@aol...>
Subject: godin multiac...opinions?
Date: 17 Apr 2002 13:30:37 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com

I know it's not an acoustic, but it is an electric that is designed for
acoustic players, which I am. I'm seeking opinions. I played a nylon string one
a couple of times, and enjoyed it. What sort of amp would go with this guitar
well? where is a good place to buy one? Are there other guitars I should
consider along these lines?

I'm playing more jazz lately, and need amplification to be heard above the
horns and saxophones....

Josh

From: CyberSerf <nospam.cybrserf@sympatico...>
Subject: Re: godin multiac...opinions?
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 13:36:05 -0400
Organization: Bell Sympatico

Wait a minute...play one first..."This guitar is crap" type pronouncements
are IMHO...well they're crap...It is an opinion, perhaps with some
justification, but most likely based on a single instrument. Every
production line has a few duds and I don't think the Multiac as a line is
crap at all. I don't personally own a Multiac though I've played a few, and,
in fairness, they are not to my liking when played acoustically, but plugged
in, they provide a nice warm nylon string sound that is hard to find
anywhere's else for any price. I do own a couple of Godins and I can speak
to their exceedingly good quality and workmanship. I have an LGX which I
patch through an A/B switch with one line to my Fender Twin Reverb (B
Channel) and the other line to the Marshall Acoustic (A Channel). It is the
most versatile guitar I own. I also have an A11 Glissentar which is a
fretless 11 string instrument which can give up the most amazing sounds and,
seconds later, provide the most intense frustration of any guitar I've ever
played <sigh>...I guess I need more practice here. Anyway, all this to say,
the A11 has the same basic design as the Multiac and sounds golden through
an Acoustic Amp...it also sounds good through an electric Amp (I sometimes
use a Crate GXT 100S with heavy distortion...very full sound! ;-P

Cheers, CS

--
---
The opinions, comments, and advice offered by me here are mine alone.
As such, they carry as much weight as a feather in a snow storm.
 Gear Page at: http://www3.sympatico.ca/cybrserf/Gear.htm
"MKarlo" <<mkarlo@aol...>> wrote in message
news:<20020417114221.19534.00002823@mb-cm...>...
> >The electronics are okay in this guitar, but the guitar is crap.
> >
> >Riddley
>
> OK. So what do you suggest along the lines of a hybrid? A steel-string
version
> interest me.
>
> Mitch

From: RobertH446 <roberth446@aol...>
Subject: Re: godin multiac...opinions?
Date: 17 Apr 2002 14:49:36 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com

call jay wolfe at wolfe guitar in florida
godin dealer and will give you a nice price if you are looking for a new one

in terms of the "guitar is crap" comment, these guitar are very nice for the
money.
i see a lot of the top players at the Chet atkins convention playing them. not
going to compare it with a high dollar classical, but the they play great and
the ones i have seen have been built right

bob

From: Margaret Wilson <twokatmew@nospam...>
Subject: Re: godin multiac...opinions?
Date: Wed, 17 Apr 2002 09:55:36 -0400
Organization: http://extra.newsguy.com

Murch Music in Ontario carries these and ships to the US. I'm told the
prices are better buying from Canada, since these are Canadian-made guitars.
Never played one myself, but I hear they're wonderful. Re the amp you
should use, depends on the tone you want. Acoustic amp for more acoustic
tone, electric guitar amp for more electric tone.

http://www.murchmusic.com/

Regards,

Margaret

"RandPinc" <<randpinc@aol...>> wrote in message
news:<20020417093037.21834.00006411@mb-ch...>...
> I know it's not an acoustic, but it is an electric that is designed for
> acoustic players, which I am. I'm seeking opinions. I played a nylon
string one
> a couple of times, and enjoyed it. What sort of amp would go with this
guitar
> well? where is a good place to buy one? Are there other guitars I should
> consider along these lines?
>
> I'm playing more jazz lately, and need amplification to be heard above the
> horns and saxophones....
>
> Josh

From: P Kucharski <pgkuchar@yahoo...>
Subject: Re: godin multiac...opinions?
Date: 17 Apr 2002 10:40:06 -0700
Organization: http://groups.google.com/

<randpinc@aol...> (RandPinc) wrote in message news:<<20020417093037.21834.00006411@mb-ch...>>...
> I know it's not an acoustic, but it is an electric that is designed for
> acoustic players, which I am. I'm seeking opinions. I played a nylon string one
> a couple of times, and enjoyed it. What sort of amp would go with this guitar
> well? where is a good place to buy one? Are there other guitars I should
> consider along these lines?
>
> I'm playing more jazz lately, and need amplification to be heard above the
> horns and saxophones....
>
> Josh

The Godin Multiac is a great guitar in my opinion. They have great
playing necks and the RMC pickups aren't bad for piezo elements. I've
had mine for 4 or 5 years now and I wouldn't part with it.

If you want to hear some great music that was recorded with a Multiac,
listen to the recordings of a friend of mine. This is a Multiac at
its best.

D'Arez
http://artists.mp3s.com/artists/233/darez.html

Paul Kucharski

From: William D Clinger <cesura@qnci...>
Subject: Re: godin multiac...opinions?
Date: 17 Apr 2002 11:59:12 -0700
Organization: http://groups.google.com/

RandPinc wrote:
> I'm seeking opinions. I played a nylon string one
> a couple of times, and enjoyed it.

Me too.

> What sort of amp would go with this guitar well?

I'm very pleased with the sound of my nylon-string Takamine
through my Ultrasound AG-50D.

> Are there other guitars I should consider along these lines?

Maybe a Gibson Chet Atkins CE or CEC, or Kirk Sand, or Paul
McGill, or Turner Renaissance. All are more expensive than
the Godin. Among them I've played only the Gibson, which
sounds sweeter than the Multiac but seems less versatile.

Will

Rick Turner Renaissance--opinions [3]

From: Hojo2x <hojo2x@aol...>
Subject: Re: Rick Turner Renaissance--opinions
Date: 20 Apr 2002 15:38:25 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com

>Now soliciting opinions on the
>Renaissance. Any strong feelings out there?

Turner's Renaissance semi-acoustic instruments are idiosyncratic designs that,
while certainly not to everyone's tastes, work well for their intended purpose.

You don't see many of the guitars around, frankly, probably because there are
an infinite number of alternative ways to get an acoustic sound from a
plugged-in guitar. Where the Renaissance instruments really shine, and what
they sell the most of by far, are the Renaissance basses, the fretless models
in particular.

Wade Hampton Miller
Chugiak, Alaska

From: Dave Cohen <drcohenn@yahoo...>
Subject: Re: Rick Turner Renaissance--opinions
Date: 20 Apr 2002 10:52:04 -0700
Organization: http://groups.google.com/

Josh, I actually have one I'm planning on selling. I had a Godin
Multiac and liked it a lot, but the Renaissance is a much nicer
guitar. Stays in tune much better and sounds great amplified. They
obviously cost a bit more than Godin but there's a reason. Drop me an
email if you're interested once you've finished your research.....Dave
<drcohenn@yahoo...>

From: Riddley <riddley@aol...>
Subject: Re: Rick Turner Renaissance--opinions
Date: 20 Apr 2002 18:30:04 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com

I like both my Rennaissance guitars, the 6 string steel, and the 4 string
fretless bass.

I think amplifying a straight acoustic guitar still gets the best sound.

Riddley

Nylon strung acoustic - ideas [10]

From: Mark D <mark@dizbin...>
Subject: Nylon strung acoustic - ideas
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 2002 17:27:28 +0100
 I am looking for a nylon strung acoustic but don't really want to go down
the classical route. I've see that Taylor have recently brought out a new
range that looks like the type of thing I'd be looking at - although I don't
really need the electronics.

Unfortunately I haven't managed to find anywhere nearby where I can try one
out ... has anyone got any ideas on what these are like - or could suggest
some alternatives.

From: Rolavine <rolavine@aol...>
Subject: Re: Nylon strung acoustic - ideas
Date: 08 Jun 2002 17:03:02 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com

>From: "Mark D" <mark@dizbin...>

>I am looking for a nylon strung acoustic but don't really want to go down
>the classical route.

Why not, hundreds of years of guitar evolution, craftsmanship, and creativity
down the drain, so you can get the new fangled thingie with the too narrow
neck?

The following are my opinions only, while they are not the slighest bit
arbitrary, they do reflect the playing environment of my hands and dexterity.

I recently made the switch to nylon strings. I love how long my fingernails are
now lasting. I love how you can hit a clear - ringing open string next to a
string that is being fretted (if you have the traditional wide neck), and I
love how I'm getting to rediscover the lovely simple sounds that can be made
off chord forms on a wide flat neck.

Well I didnt' go the traditional classic route either, I went Flamenco. I love
how bright these guitars are, almost halfway between a true classical and a
steel string.

Now if your a steel string player the wide neck will feel strange at first, so
you may think I'll go with a narrow neck. That thought will have you buying
something that will only be like a poor steel string guitar, and never give you
the chance to explore what the nylon string can really do.

From: Roy McAlister <mcaguitars@aol...>
Subject: Re: Nylon strung acoustic - ideas
Date: 08 Jun 2002 17:08:13 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com

<< I am looking for a nylon strung acoustic but don't really want to go down
the classical route. I've see that Taylor have recently brought out a new
range that looks like the type of thing I'd be looking at - although I don't
really need the electronics.>>
  I have a nylon hybrid model that I'm still in the midst
of prototyping. I've built guitars like this in the past,
but I'm now tooling up to offer it as a standard model.
It's based more on a 12 fret OOO size body.

-Roy McAlister
www.mcalisterguitars.com

From: foldedpath <mbarrs@REMOVE-NOSPAM...>
Subject: Re: Nylon strung acoustic - ideas
Date: Sat, 08 Jun 2002 18:32:00 GMT
Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing

"Mark D" <<mark@dizbin...>> wrote in message
news:adtb7i$9ih$<1@news7...>...

> I am looking for a nylon strung acoustic but don't really
> want to go down the classical route. I've see that Taylor
> have recently brought out a new range that looks like the
> type of thing I'd be looking at - although I don't really
> need the electronics.
>
> Unfortunately I haven't managed to find anywhere nearby
> where I can try one out ... has anyone got any ideas on
> what these are like - or could suggest some alternatives.

Hi Mark,

Do a Deja/Google search
(http://groups.google.com/advanced_group_search) with the words
"Taylor nylon" and use RMMGA as the newsgroup name. There's been
some discussion here about it recently.

I have a jones for a non-classical nylon string guitar too, but
it's going to be a while before I can afford it. One of the ones
I'm thinking about is the Lowden "Jazz" S25J :

http://www.lowdenguitars.com/Jazz_specs.htm

Rolavine made a good argument for going the full classical route.
But I think something like the Taylor or this Lowden make more
sense if you still plan on playing other types of guitars,
instead of just focusing on classical guitar as your main axe.
Both my main steel string acoustic and my main electric guitar
have fingerboard widths between 1 13/16" - 1 7/8", which works
fine for me. The S25J would fit right in there. I'm going to try
finding a used S25J when the time is right.

If you can spend more (a LOT more, in most cases), there are many
custom luthiers out there making interesting nylon string
guitars. Roy McAlister just mentioned he's working on one. John
Buscarino makes one with a carved back, and the guy building my
new archtop (Steve Holst) also has a nylon string model in the
works. Linda Manzer and Paul McGill make incredibly fine nylon
string guitars.

Mike Barrs

From: Hojo2x <hojo2x@aol...>
Subject: Re: Nylon strung acoustic - ideas
Date: 08 Jun 2002 23:19:32 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com

Tony Done in Australia wrote:

>I don't think that reviews on the Taylor nylon strings have been
very>favourable, but someone may want to correct me on this.

No, you've reported the general feedback on the nylon string Taylors quite
accurately.

I played a couple of them earlier this spring and was quite unimpressed with
the tone, particularly given the price point that they were selling them for.

Mark, you didn't mention what sort of budget you have to work with, but there
are a couple of routes you can take if you want a nylon string instrument but
don't care for the flat, wide fingerboard that has become standard for
classical guitars.

One approach is to talk to a handbuilder like Roy McAlister, who posted earlier
in this thread. I can vouch that he does superb work: I own two of his
guitars. And when you order a custom instrument he or another luthier can make
the fretboard any width and radius you like.

Another thought is that you find an old parlour guitar from the early part of
the 20th Century. These are still fairly common and relatively easy to find if
you know where to look, and they're braced for nylon strings (gut strings is
what they would have actually used) but generally have narrower fingerboards
than today's classical guitars.

One last thought: Ovation used to make a nylon string model with a narrower
fretboard. I'm spacing out on the model name, but it's the one Kenny Loggins
used to play.

Since you're in Britain, Mark, it may just be simpler for you to travel down to
Spain and see what you can see. Again, I'm fuzzy on the details, but it seems
to me that there's one region there which favors narrower fretboards than what
has become the standard elsewhere.

So alternatives exist, they just require a bit more legwork to find them. Good
luck with it.

Wade Hampton Miller
Chugiak, Alaska

From: John E. Golden <johnisgolden@yahoo...>
Subject: Re: Nylon strung acoustic - ideas
Date: 9 Jun 2002 18:30:07 -0700
Organization: http://groups.google.com/

Hojo2x had one last thought:

> One last thought: Ovation used to make a nylon string model with a narrower
> fretboard. I'm spacing out on the model name, but it's the one Kenny Loggins
> used to play.

Resale values on Ovation classical guitars are not so good, especially
on non-amplified, non-cutaway models. So deals can be had.

One possibility is the Ovation Model 1113-4 Deep Bowl Classical. Early
ones had really choice Spanish Pine Soundboards and later ones Cedar.
Fingerboard Width at the Nut is listed in the old catalogs as 2 in.,
but the two I owned actually measured closer to 1-7/8 in. Scale Length
is kind of long though, at 665 mm (26 3/16 in.), as I remember. I've
seen them used for about $250.00.

Ovation had other models with slightly narrower fingerboards, shorter
scale lengths, and even 14 fret necks (Model No. 1124-4), but they
were not quite so nice sounding in my recollection.

Most classical players are down on Ovations, but they're really not so
bad. Absolutely even sounding and predictable on every note--probably
because the fiberglass back design emphasizes the fundamentals. This
makes for good separation of the notes within a chord, albeit at the
expense of the natural resonance within the guitar itself. One other
not-so-good thing, at least for classical players, is the neck design
(not a "flat oval"). But this might not bother a steel string player.
Of course, they do tend to slide off your lap if you play sitting
down.

Then, Hojo2x had yet another thought:

> Since you're in Britain, Mark, it may just be simpler for you to travel down to
> Spain and see what you can see. Again, I'm fuzzy on the details, but it seems
> to me that there's one region there which favors narrower fretboards than what
> has become the standard elsewhere.

I am not aware of a particular region of Spain where narrower
fingerboards are more prevalent. However, classical guitar
fingerboards have become slightly narrower in the last 20 years.
Before that, 664 mm scale lengths were very popular. Probably
popularized by Jose Ramirez III, who had lots of influence. These 664
mm Ramirez guitars had fingerboards 2-1/8 in. wide at the nut. Today's
more popular 650 mm Scale Length Classical Guitars are 2-1/16 or even
2 in. wide at the nut.

From: William D Clinger <cesura@qnci...>
Subject: Re: Nylon strung acoustic - ideas
Date: 9 Jun 2002 09:49:53 -0700
Organization: http://groups.google.com/

Mark D wrote:
> I am looking for a nylon strung acoustic but don't really want to go down
> the classical route. I've see that Taylor have recently brought out a new
> range that looks like the type of thing I'd be looking at - although I don't
> really need the electronics.
>
> Unfortunately I haven't managed to find anywhere nearby where I can try one
> out ... has anyone got any ideas on what these are like - or could suggest
> some alternatives.

I play a Takamine that's similar to the new Taylor nylon-string
guitars, which I haven't seen. You can hear my Takamine on two
tunes at http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/will/Personal/music.html

It might help if you'd tell us why you don't want to go the
classical route. Broadly speaking, some of your options are

classical guitars: very broad range of quality and price

factory-made semi-classical guitars: Breedlove, Lowden, Tacoma,
  Takamine, Taylor, Wechter, Yamaha, and others; some of these,
  like the Takamine CD-132SC, are basically a classical with
  cutaway and electronics; others are more like the new Taylors
custom nylon-string guitars: out of my league; if I were in the
  market for one of these, I'd start by talking to Alan Carruth
  or Roy McAlister or some other builder of these things
nylon-string electric guitars: Godin Multiac nylon, Gibson CE/CEC,
  Kirk Sand, Turner Renaissance, possibly Paul McGill (I'm not
  sure whether they're usable without amplification); I presume
  you're not interested in these, since you don't need electronics
You might start by browsing the online "classical" inventory at
Elderly Instruments. They don't have the high-end or custom
stuff, but they do have a reasonable selection of factory-made
semi-classical guitars.

Will

From: Al Carruth <alcarruth@aol...>
Subject: Re: Nylon strung acoustic - ideas
Date: 11 Jun 2002 12:14:03 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com

I built a nylon string last year based on the Martin 000-12 fret, which was,
after all, designed as thier 'Grand Concert' guitar in the days of gut strings.
Using a thinner top and very light X bracing it had a fine sound, but not
'Spanish'. One of my students still talks about that guitar.

Alan Carruth / Luthier
http://www.alcarruthluthier.com

From: James T. Kirby <kirby@udel...>
Subject: Re: Nylon strung acoustic - ideas
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 08:04:32 -0400
Organization: university of delaware

I second this - I played two Taylors yesterday - one maple and one ovangkol. The maple
was very thin sounding - not much fullness to the tone at all. The ovangkol instrument
had a better tone, more bass, a fuller sound overall, but still not terribly impressive.
I wouldn't rate either one as being in the same class as the standard student model Ramirez
that a friend has. The narrower-than-classical neck does appeal to a number of steel-string
players I have talked to, though. The ovangkol NS42ce was a beautiful instrument, by the
way.

JK

Hojo2x wrote:

>
> I played a couple of them earlier this spring and was quite unimpressed with
> the tone, particularly given the price point that they were selling them for.
>
>
>
>
> Wade Hampton Miller
> Chugiak, Alaska
>

--
James T. Kirby
Center for Applied Coastal Research
University of Delaware
Newark, DE 19716

phone: 302-831-2438
fax: 302-831-1228
email: <kirby@udel...>
http://chinacat.coastal.udel.edu/~kirby

From: Kim Strickland <kestrick@ix...>
Subject: Re: Nylon strung acoustic - ideas
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 19:50:02 -0400
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises

In article <<3D0738D0.7010900@udel...>>,
 "James T. Kirby" <kirby@udel.edu> wrote:
> I second this - I played two Taylors yesterday - one maple and one ovangkol.
> The maple
> was very thin sounding - not much fullness to the tone at all. The ovangkol
> instrument
> had a better tone, more bass, a fuller sound overall, but still not terribly
> impressive.
> I wouldn't rate either one as being in the same class as the standard student
> model Ramirez
> that a friend has. The narrower-than-classical neck does appeal to a number
> of steel-string
> players I have talked to, though. The ovangkol NS42ce was a beautiful
> instrument, by the
> way.
>
> JK
>
> Hojo2x wrote:
>
> >
> > I played a couple of them earlier this spring and was quite unimpressed
> > with
> > the tone, particularly given the price point that they were selling them
> > for.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Wade Hampton Miller
> > Chugiak, Alaska
> >

I played one recently as well by itself, and was not impressed with the
tone or volume either. However, these are really meant to be played
through an amp. I think of them more as competition to the Gibson Chet
Atkins, the Godin Multiacs, and various thin-bodied nylon string
instruments by Sand, Mermer, or at a lower price point, Yamaha,
Takamine, Carvin classical, etc. Of course, the Taylor costs more than
the others I mentioned with exception of the Kirk Sand instruments
(exquisite custom instruments) or those by Rich Mermer (only a bit more
expensive than the Taylor).

Kim Strickland

Taylor Nylon 72CE [7]

From: Pilgrim <cdpmusic@hotmail...>
Subject: Taylor Nylon 72CE
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 03:21:33 GMT
Organization: Giganews.Com - Premium News Outsourcing

Anyone have any experience with the Taylor nylon series? Particularly, has
anyone played the 72 (red cedar/indian rosewood) model? Thanks, Jim

From: rtmca <rtmca@yahoo...>
Subject: Re: Taylor Nylon 72CE
Date: 8 Aug 2002 06:24:43 -0700
Organization: http://groups.google.com/

"Pilgrim" <<cdpmusic@hotmail...>> wrote in message news:<1tl49.151787$<nm.5522007@bin5...>>...
> Anyone have any experience with the Taylor nylon series? Particularly, has
> anyone played the 72 (red cedar/indian rosewood) model? Thanks, Jim

Just trying to be helpful and not be rude, but sometimes to head off a
wreck one must yell at the driver: "WATCH OUT--THEY ARE CRAP."
If you are primarily looking for an acoustic electric, get a guitar
designed for that specifically like a Godin, Sand, or Gibson Chet
Atkins. IF you want an acoustic primarily you could get any old
classical and it would sound better by far than the Taylor. I would
recommend getting an Esteve--these are high quality classicals for the
money. Those that list for around 1000- 1500 dollars are excellent in
every way. Even the lowly Yamaha GD_10C is an excellent classical and
can be gotten for around $650. I have never met anyone who has had
any experience playing classical guitars that didn't make a face like
biting into a rotten tomato when picking uop a Taylor classical and
playing it. I would enumerate their failings but the list is too
exhaustive. Suffice it to say that they sound acoustically like they
are made of paper mache and plugged in they are okaym but guitars
designed to be acoustic electric exclusively sound much better.
There may be someone out there with nylon string expertise who can
tolerate a Taylor classical but I have never met that person. They do
have 2 attributes--they look nice and they have the Taylor name.
Cheers,
Robert McArthur

From: Dick Schneiders <dickschnei@aol...>
Subject: Re: Taylor Nylon 72CE
Date: 08 Aug 2002 17:44:08 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com

Exactly my opinion of these guitars, too, Robert. I have played 3 of them, in
different configurations, and they were all terrible sounding compared to much
cheaper nylon stringed guitars.

I thought it was interesting that the Taylor Wood & Steel that I just received
really is trying to pump these things up. There were several glowing letters
from "buyers" that love them, and a couple of them purported to be professional
guitarists.

It appears that Bob Taylor also sees the overwhelming negative reaction to
these guitars and is trying to do what he can to counteract it.

Dick Schneiders

>Just trying to be helpful and not be rude, but sometimes to head off a
>wreck one must yell at the driver: "WATCH OUT--THEY ARE CRAP."
>If you are primarily looking for an acoustic electric, get a guitar
>designed for that specifically like a Godin, Sand, or Gibson Chet
>Atkins. IF you want an acoustic primarily you could get any old
>classical and it would sound better by far than the Taylor. I would
>recommend getting an Esteve--these are high quality classicals for the
>money. Those that list for around 1000- 1500 dollars are excellent in
>every way. Even the lowly Yamaha GD_10C is an excellent classical and
>can be gotten for around $650. I have never met anyone who has had
>any experience playing classical guitars that didn't make a face like
>biting into a rotten tomato when picking uop a Taylor classical and
>playing it. I would enumerate their failings but the list is too
>exhaustive. Suffice it to say that they sound acoustically like they
>are made of paper mache and plugged in they are okaym but guitars
>designed to be acoustic electric exclusively sound much better.
>There may be someone out there with nylon string expertise who can
>tolerate a Taylor classical but I have never met that person. They do
>have 2 attributes--they look nice and they have the Taylor name.
>Cheers,
>Robert McArthur
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

From: Jim's Mail <jcarp.1@starpower...>
Subject: Re: Taylor Nylon 72CE
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 14:10:36 -0400

I just played each of the guitars in that series at Chuck Leven's Wahsington
Music last week. I wasn't overwhelmed, nor underwhelmed either. I have no
experience with classicals, but thought the sound was ok, the playability
quite good, but I expect better than ok. The salesman who I think was being
honest (I've bought guitars and accessories there for years) told me they
sold like hotcakes at first, but that sales had evened off. He said sales
seemed to be picking up again. Perhaps that is due to Taylor's push. I
think this is a very important line for Taylor. They haven't introduced a
new line of guitars since they came out with the Baby and Big Baby, and
those are lower priced instruments. The salesman said Taylor will be coming
out with a Grand Auditorium body style classical either in the Fall or the
New Year. He said they were doing that due to customers desire for a bigger
sound. The body on the GA is somewhat bigger/deeper than the Grand Concert
and should provide that. It will be interesting to see if Taylor makes it
with these. I actually think they will. I think many touring pros who use
Taylors will experiment using them in the studio and on stage to get a nylon
sound. Of course the sound will be coming through the pickups and should
give better results than just test driving one of these babies acoustically
in the store.

Jcarp

> From: <dickschnei@aol...> (Dick Schneiders)
> Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
> Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic
> Date: 08 Aug 2002 17:44:08 GMT
> Subject: Re: Taylor Nylon 72CE
>
> Exactly my opinion of these guitars, too, Robert. I have played 3 of them, in
> different configurations, and they were all terrible sounding compared to much
> cheaper nylon stringed guitars.
>
> I thought it was interesting that the Taylor Wood & Steel that I just received
> really is trying to pump these things up. There were several glowing letters
> from "buyers" that love them, and a couple of them purported to be
> professional
> guitarists.
>
> It appears that Bob Taylor also sees the overwhelming negative reaction to
> these guitars and is trying to do what he can to counteract it.
>
> Dick Schneiders
>
>> Just trying to be helpful and not be rude, but sometimes to head off a
>> wreck one must yell at the driver: "WATCH OUT--THEY ARE CRAP."
>> If you are primarily looking for an acoustic electric, get a guitar
>> designed for that specifically like a Godin, Sand, or Gibson Chet
>> Atkins. IF you want an acoustic primarily you could get any old
>> classical and it would sound better by far than the Taylor. I would
>> recommend getting an Esteve--these are high quality classicals for the
>> money. Those that list for around 1000- 1500 dollars are excellent in
>> every way. Even the lowly Yamaha GD_10C is an excellent classical and
>> can be gotten for around $650. I have never met anyone who has had
>> any experience playing classical guitars that didn't make a face like
>> biting into a rotten tomato when picking uop a Taylor classical and
>> playing it. I would enumerate their failings but the list is too
>> exhaustive. Suffice it to say that they sound acoustically like they
>> are made of paper mache and plugged in they are okaym but guitars
>> designed to be acoustic electric exclusively sound much better.
>> There may be someone out there with nylon string expertise who can
>> tolerate a Taylor classical but I have never met that person. They do
>> have 2 attributes--they look nice and they have the Taylor name.
>> Cheers,
>> Robert McArthur
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

From: rtmca <rtmca@yahoo...>
Subject: Re: Taylor Nylon 72CE
Date: 8 Aug 2002 14:59:37 -0700
Organization: http://groups.google.com/

"Bob Dorgan"
> Hey Robert,
> How about the Breedlove nylon string?
> Every try one of those?
> I've tried a Taylor and a few others, and admittedly I don't know diddly
> about classical guitars, but I thought the Taylor was pretty dead sounding
> compared to the Ramirez and the Yamahas that were in the shop.
> Bob Dorgan

Bob--
The Breedlove is probably closer to the Taylor than to a traditional
classical. They have a 1 3/4" neck and that would make it difficult
to follow through with the right hand fingers given the thickness of
nylon strings. There is a reason why classicals have a 2" nut.
To check out some fine classicals one might try Zavaleta's:
http://www.zavaletas-guitarras.com/mirror/inventoryC.htm
Or check out the Esteves or Cordova's at Guitar Center--excellent
instruments.
Robert

From: Leonardo <alcamoz@mwt...>
Subject: Re: Taylor Nylon 72CE
Date: Thu, 08 Aug 2002 17:54:12 -0500
Organization: Newsfeeds.com http://www.newsfeeds.com 80,000+ UNCENSORED Newsgroups.

rtmca wrote:

> "Bob Dorgan"
> > Hey Robert,
> > How about the Breedlove nylon string?
> > Every try one of those?
> > I've tried a Taylor and a few others, and admittedly I don't know diddly
> > about classical guitars, but I thought the Taylor was pretty dead sounding
> > compared to the Ramirez and the Yamahas that were in the shop.
> > Bob Dorgan
>

Tried a couple myself. Admittedly, I do not have a practised ear when it comes
to guitar tone, but I don't think it sounded half as good as the 30 year old S.
Yari nylon I was stupid enough to sell.

It hit me as a guitar that was designed to be played, mainly plugged in, by
steel stringers.

If I had been in an anti-Ta***r mode at the time, I would have thought that
since Ta***r has had much success defining a new steel string sound, he just
might be arrogant enough to believe that he can do the same with gut strings
guitars

just my 0.0002 worth

Lenny Alcamo

-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
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From: Troubleman (Jay Brown) <troubleman@starpower...>
Subject: Re: Taylor Nylon 72CE
Date: Thu, 8 Aug 2002 19:18:03 -0400

"Pilgrim" <<cdpmusic@hotmail...>> wrote in message
news:1tl49.151787$<nm.5522007@bin5...>...
> Anyone have any experience with the Taylor nylon series? Particularly, has
> anyone played the 72 (red cedar/indian rosewood) model? Thanks, Jim
>

Unlike the vast majority here in this newsgroup, I don't hate Taylor
guitars. For the asking price, I truly and deeply believe their nylon series
doth eminate a most malodorous air. They sound "eh - okay" if they're
plugged in to an Ultrasound amp. Add some effects and they're usable. They
don't sound like a classical guitar, but usable. As for their straight
acoustic sound....(geh)..... Well, they are pretty to look at.

peace,

jb

Budget classical? [8]

From: Alex Ravenel <bonzo@vnet...>
Subject: Budget classical?
Date: Tue, 20 Aug 2002 23:56:04 GMT
Organization: RoadRunner - Carolina

Sometime soon I would like to venture into the world of nylon strings and
buy a classical guitar. The problem is, being a student, money is a large
issue. Does anyone have any suggestions for a decent budget (<$300)
classical guitar that isnt a piece of junk? Any help is greatly
appreciated.

--
Alex Ravenel
http://www.theravenel.net

From: Hojo2x <hojo2x@aol...>
Subject: Re: Budget classical?
Date: 21 Aug 2002 00:59:21 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com

Alex Ravenel wrote:

>Does anyone have any suggestions for a decent budget (<$300) >classical guitar
that isnt a piece of junk?

Sure. A couple of suggestions.

One is to look for a used Yamaha classical. Dollar for dollar, they're really
hard to beat.

Another possibility is a used Guild Mark I, Mark II, Mark III or Mark IV
classical. These are all-solid wood classicals that are woefully under-valued
and thus under-priced on the market. I recently bought a middle-of-the-pack
Mark III for right around what you're looking to spend.

Good luck with it.

Wade Hampton Miller
Chugiak, Alaska

From: Dick Schneiders <dickschnei@aol...>
Subject: Re: Budget classical?
Date: 21 Aug 2002 01:21:59 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com

The best budget classicals I have ever played are the Lucida Artista models.
They are all solid wood (the lowest level model is only a solid top, I believe)
and the best ones can be found for around $300 in discount music stores or on
eBay. These guitars have gotten rave reviews at many stores websites and also
on the various classical guitar bulletin boards.

Be certain you only get the Lucida guitar that has the name Artista on the
label. There is another very poor and cheap classical brand that is simply
called Lucida. They are made in China while the Lucida Artista's are made in
Spain. The Lucida Artista's are well made and have a wonderful sound for such
an inexpensive guitar.

I own their top of the line flamenco guitar, but every one of their classical
guitars I played were also excellent. I have a much more expensive Cordoba
flamenco guitar and the Lucida Artista is easily the better sounding and
looking of the two.

They can be found, or ordered, at dealers that stock the Johnson line of steel
stringed guitars.

Good luck,

Dick Schneiders

From: Jeb <jcmcgee@uwyo...>
Subject: Re: Budget classical?
Date: Wed, 21 Aug 2002 00:11:31 -0600
Organization: Disorganization

I purchased a Samick classical for my son and was quite pleased with
construction/tone...right around $300 for a solid topped instrument.

Regards,

jeb

"Alex Ravenel" wrote...

> Sometime soon I would like to venture into the world of nylon strings and
> buy a classical guitar. The problem is, being a student, money is a large
> issue. Does anyone have any suggestions for a decent budget (<$300)
> classical guitar that isnt a piece of junk? Any help is greatly
> appreciated.
>
> --
> Alex Ravenel
> http://www.theravenel.net

From: William D Clinger <cesura@qnci...>
Subject: Re: Budget classical?
Date: 21 Aug 2002 11:14:03 -0700
Organization: http://groups.google.com/

Alex Ravenel inquired:
> Does anyone have any suggestions for a decent budget (<$300)
> classical guitar that isnt a piece of junk?

La Patrie.

Will

From: glandry <g_landry@videotron...>
Subject: Re: Budget classical?
Date: 21 Aug 2002 11:41:33 -0700
Organization: http://groups.google.com/

Alex Ravenel <<bonzo@vnet...>> wrote in message news:<<Xns9270CB02FDECbonzovnetnetnet@24...>>...
> Sometime soon I would like to venture into the world of nylon strings and
> buy a classical guitar. The problem is, being a student, money is a large
> issue. Does anyone have any suggestions for a decent budget (<$300)
> classical guitar that isnt a piece of junk? Any help is greatly
> appreciated.

You might want to consider La Patrie classicals. These are made by
the same folks that build Seagull, Norman, and Simon and Patrick.

From: rtmca <rtmca@yahoo...>
Subject: Re: Budget classical?
Date: 21 Aug 2002 11:53:22 -0700
Organization: http://groups.google.com/

Alex Ravenel <<bonzo@vnet...>> wrote in message news:<<Xns9270CB02FDECbonzovnetnetnet@24...>>...
> Sometime soon I would like to venture into the world of nylon strings and
> buy a classical guitar. The problem is, being a student, money is a large
> issue. Does anyone have any suggestions for a decent budget (<$300)
> classical guitar that isnt a piece of junk? Any help is greatly
> appreciated.

Yamahas are probably the best in your price range. models 150,
160,170 are good.
If you could double the amt. the Yamaha GD-10C is truly a fine guitar
that is way cheaper than it should be.
Robert

From: mwpannell <mwpannellno-spam@yahoo...>
Subject: Re: Budget classical?
Date: Thu, 22 Aug 2002 16:26:17 GMT
Organization: Cox Communications

My 2-cents: I went on a search last year for the "good but cheap classical"
and, if you can make it to the just under $400 or just over $500 range, I
would suggest you at least check out an Almansa. I got one and have been
very, very pleased.Solid tops (cedar and spruce) and lam (mahagony and indian
rosewood) backs and sides done nicely. I bught a 434 at Maple Street Guitars
in Atlanta for $525. The 401s are on the web for $370/$390.

http://www.maplestreetguitars.com/
http://www.guitarrasalmansa.es/
http://www.southwestguitar.com/
http://shop.store.yahoo.com/classicalconnection/clasguit1.html

michael

Alex Ravenel wrote:

> Sometime soon I would like to venture into the world of nylon strings and
> buy a classical guitar. The problem is, being a student, money is a large
> issue. Does anyone have any suggestions for a decent budget (<$300)
> classical guitar that isnt a piece of junk? Any help is greatly
> appreciated.
>
> --
> Alex Ravenel
> http://www.theravenel.net

Recommendations for nylon strings [14]

From: Jerry Ranch <ranchjp@mchsi...>
Subject: Recommendations for nylon strings
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 15:52:44 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com

Hi all
A friend loaned me his nylon stringed acoustic guitar.
It needs new strings. I don't know squat about nylon stringed
guitars..but I love the sound. "Change the World" sounds great on
this instrument.

I need recommendations for nylon strings...cost is irrelevant.

Thanks
Jerry

From: CyberSerf <nospam.cybrserf@sympatico...>
Subject: Re: Recommendations for nylon strings
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 17:09:42 -0400
Organization: Bell Sympatico

Try D'Addario Pro-Arte EJ-45 (Normal Tension, Silverplated Wound, Clear
Nylon)...very nice or Augustine Blue...likewise nice, but more
variable...both about $12 Canadian for a set.

Cheers, CS

--
---
The opinions, comments, and advice offered by me here are mine alone.
As such, they carry as much weight as a feather in a snow storm.
 Gear Page at: http://www3.sympatico.ca/cybrserf/Gear.htm
"Jerry Ranch" <<ranchjp@mchsi...>> wrote in message
news:<gva2nuo18ffig07ka65v64i36gbe7pmvjs@4ax...>...
> Hi all
> A friend loaned me his nylon stringed acoustic guitar.
> It needs new strings. I don't know squat about nylon stringed
> guitars..but I love the sound. "Change the World" sounds great on
> this instrument.
>
> I need recommendations for nylon strings...cost is irrelevant.
>
> Thanks
> Jerry

From: Huh? <noname@nonames...>
Subject: Re: Recommendations for nylon strings
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 21:29:20 GMT
Organization: AT&T Broadband

I used to use Savarez from France, back when I used to consume mass
quantities of beer and chips. They were pricey then ($9/set 25 years ago),
list is $17.95 today I think. I used the Red Card (medium guage). Haven't
touched the classical much for a long time, and its hard to believe, but I
still have a 20 year old set on my classical, and they sound great....
Jeff

"CyberSerf" <<nospam.cybrserf@sympatico...>> wrote in message
news:S8ac9.11307$<z21.1994743@news20...>...
> Try D'Addario Pro-Arte EJ-45 (Normal Tension, Silverplated Wound, Clear
> Nylon)...very nice or Augustine Blue...likewise nice, but more
> variable...both about $12 Canadian for a set.
>
> Cheers, CS
>
> --
> ---
> The opinions, comments, and advice offered by me here are mine alone.
> As such, they carry as much weight as a feather in a snow storm.
> Gear Page at: http://www3.sympatico.ca/cybrserf/Gear.htm
>
>
> "Jerry Ranch" <<ranchjp@mchsi...>> wrote in message
> news:<gva2nuo18ffig07ka65v64i36gbe7pmvjs@4ax...>...
> > Hi all
> > A friend loaned me his nylon stringed acoustic guitar.
> > It needs new strings. I don't know squat about nylon stringed
> > guitars..but I love the sound. "Change the World" sounds great on
> > this instrument.
> >
> > I need recommendations for nylon strings...cost is irrelevant.
> >
> > Thanks
> > Jerry
>
>

From: Spike (Not Moose....) <nieman@erewhon...>
Subject: Re: Recommendations for nylon strings
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 21:32:21 -0400
Organization: MindSpring Enterprises

"Jerry Ranch" <<ranchjp@mchsi...>> wrote in message
news:<gva2nuo18ffig07ka65v64i36gbe7pmvjs@4ax...>...
> Hi all
> A friend loaned me his nylon stringed acoustic guitar.
> It needs new strings. I don't know squat about nylon stringed
> guitars..but I love the sound. "Change the World" sounds great on
> this instrument.
>
> I need recommendations for nylon strings...cost is irrelevant.
>
> Thanks
> Jerry

The D'Addario Pro Arte are a good place to start, and perhaps to finish.
Get the normal tension, and be prepared for one of the idiosyncrasies of
nylon strings - a new set takes about forever to settle down. At first,
they'll need retuning about once a song. In a couple of days, they'll hold
a tuning for 2 or 3 songs. In about a week they'll get to where they stay
tuned about as long as steel strings.

Changing nylon strings is a little different if you have a tie block at the
bridge end. Here's a link to a guide, with pictures, to restringing this
type of guitar:
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Musician/Guitar/Setup/Classical/ClassicStr/c
lassicstr1.html

Have fun! As you said, the sound is special and it IS worth all the
trouble.

Spike (not loose (strings, that is...)...

From: Frank Emanuel <femanuel@sympatico...>
Subject: Re: Recommendations for nylon strings
Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 23:27:18 -0400
Organization: Bell Sympatico

>
> The D'Addario Pro Arte are a good place to start, and perhaps to finish.
> Get the normal tension, and be prepared for one of the idiosyncrasies of
> nylon strings - a new set takes about forever to settle down. At first,
> they'll need retuning about once a song. In a couple of days, they'll
hold
> a tuning for 2 or 3 songs. In about a week they'll get to where they stay
> tuned about as long as steel strings.
>
> Changing nylon strings is a little different if you have a tie block at
the
> bridge end. Here's a link to a guide, with pictures, to restringing this
> type of guitar:

I can vouch for the tuning fun. I find that once they set though they will
stay pretty much in tune until they need to be replaced. They last a heck of
a lot longer than steel (at least for me). Nothing compares to that sound
eh. I love it too and I really suck on my classical.

enjoy,
Frank

From: John E. Golden <johnisgolden@yahoo...>
Subject: Re: Recommendations for nylon strings
Date: 31 Aug 2002 21:49:48 -0700
Organization: http://groups.google.com/

Jerry Ranch wrote,

> I need recommendations for nylon strings...cost is irrelevant.

Lots of good ones, but I would recommend Savarez Alliance.

Regards,
John E. Golden

From: Jerry Ranch <ranchjp@mchsi...>
Subject: Re: Recommendations for nylon strings
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 09:05:33 -0500
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com

Thanks for the advice.
The instrument is a Garcia...a pretty low end instrument...but not
bad.
The nut is 2 1/16, and the fretboard is flat...a characteristic, I
presume of all classical guitars...not a problem.

Another questionn I have about nylon strings is whether or not they
are classified as light to heavy, as are steel strings. I find that I
can bend them too easily.. or they roll off my fingers...are there
strings that are less bendable? Or is that the whole point...to be
able to bend them? I presume this is a skill like any other, one has
to learn how not to bend them. Also since the action is pretty poor,
a less bendable string on this particular instrument might not be a
good idea.

No fret markers on the instrument either.
But I played in the dark last night while laying on the bed..the wife
thinks I'm stark raving nuts..without too much problem..so I'm getting
used to it.

When I go back to the Gallagher its a real different world..sound and
action.

And several of you have responded that the strings don't go "bad" so
frequently. But the 4,5,and 6 are metal wound right...and the ones on
this instrument are corroded (one can see black spots on them). That
can't be a sign of playablility.
Why wouldn't the windings on these strings be just as prone to
oxidation as on steel strings..other than being of a composition less
likely to oxidize etc?

Thanks
Jerry

From: Frank Emanuel <femanuel@sympatico...>
Subject: Re: Recommendations for nylon strings
Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 10:40:41 -0400
Organization: Bell Sympatico

"Jerry Ranch" <<ranchjp@mchsi...>> wrote in message
news:<3t64nuo7prtbkobbd46iaeb7i8s873kii7@4ax...>...
> Thanks for the advice.
> The instrument is a Garcia...a pretty low end instrument...but not
> bad.
> The nut is 2 1/16, and the fretboard is flat...a characteristic, I
> presume of all classical guitars...not a problem.
>
> Another questionn I have about nylon strings is whether or not they
> are classified as light to heavy, as are steel strings. I find that I
> can bend them too easily.. or they roll off my fingers...are there
> strings that are less bendable? Or is that the whole point...to be
> able to bend them? I presume this is a skill like any other, one has
> to learn how not to bend them. Also since the action is pretty poor,
> a less bendable string on this particular instrument might not be a
> good idea.

This is more a feature of the type of strings. There is less tension so it
is easier to bend and get some good vibratto happening. I found this a good
transition instrument from acoustic to electric. I could never get an
electric to behave until is took some classical lessons. Part of the problem
was my old acoustic had fairly high action so I developed a firm fretting
approach and the classical (and now electric) have changed that. I think
(IMO) my acoustic playing has improved a lot with the experience as well. I
still favour the acoustic.

Sounds like you are having fun though,
Frank

From: Jeff Carter <jeffretrac@aol...>
Subject: Re: Recommendations for nylon strings
Date: 01 Sep 2002 14:17:24 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com

Certainly lots of good advice on strings. I personally prefer high tensions,
and am currently hooked on Hannabach Goldins. They're a little pricey -about
$17 on the street. Currently, my #1 has a set of Elixirs basses on it
(w/Goldin trebles). These basses have a very bright kind of "steelish" quality
to 'em, which makes for a very modern sound. Kind of neat. But I don't know if
they still make them. I've got a set of coated D'addario's in a drawer that I'm
gonna try next. I also like Savarez Corum Alliance and D'addario Pro Artes.
And I usually buy extra bass sets, because the trebles usally last twice as
long. www.stringsbymail.com has a good selection, and good service.

As to the strings settling in, if you apply enough tension, don't use excessive
wraps, and then stretch them some (up at the nut) after they're tuned to pitch
(which will then require additional re-tuning), you shouldn't have a problem.
Using this method, my strings settle in almost immediately. Be careful not to
stretch them too aggressively, though, as you can create flat spots on the
trebles which will cause intonation problems. As another approach, my duet
partner simply tunes his up a half-step initially, until they settle in.

--Jeff

From: William D Clinger <cesura@qnci...>
Subject: Re: Recommendations for nylon strings
Date: 1 Sep 2002 10:32:33 -0700
Organization: http://groups.google.com/

Jerry Ranch wrote:
> I need recommendations for nylon strings...cost is irrelevant.

The best strings will depend on your guitar, your style and
technique, and of course your ear. http://www.stringsbymail.com/
offers good basic advice and also good individual descriptions of
particular strings.

My main classical is strung with D'Addario Pro Arte Composite normal
tension. My nylon-string folk guitar is strung with D'Addario Pro
Arte Composite bass strings but Hannabach carbon trebles; the Pro
Arte trebles aren't bright enough for this guitar.

Will

From: Racedish <racedish@aol...>
Subject: Re: Recommendations for nylon strings
Date: 01 Sep 2002 18:07:57 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com

>Jerry Ranch wrote:
>> I need recommendations for nylon strings...cost is irrelevant.

Alot depends on the model and materials of your classical guitar. "Heavy"
tension and "Extra Heavy" tension (with a wound G string) are not as scarey as
they would sound for a plywood classical. Steel string players would cringe at
these equivilant gauges and rightyfully so. I run Heavy tension Savarez on my
1959 Miguel Rodriguez flamenco and even though lightly built, no top rotation
or bridge pulling since I've owned it (15 years).

Leo in Tucson

From: Kim Strickland <kestrick@cox...>
Subject: Re: Recommendations for nylon strings
Date: Sun, 01 Sep 2002 21:55:52 GMT
Organization: Cox Communications

In article <<20020901152208.01103.00001077@mb-mq...>>,
 racedish@aol.com (Racedish) wrote:
> >Any idea how much tension a set of extra heavy nylons put on the top?
> >Bob Dorgan
>
> I'm just guessing that less than half of what light gauge steel strings would
> pull on an acoustic steel string guitar.
>
> Leo in Tucson

I don't have the numbers in front of me, but D'Addario has tension specs
for all their strings at their web sites. From what I recall, the
tension difference between normal classical strings and extra-hard was
about 15%. Much less than the difference between light and heavy steel
strings. I believe the average tension for a string in an extra hard
set is about 15-16 lbs.

Kim Strickland

From: Dick Schneiders <dickschnei@aol...>
Subject: Re: Recommendations for nylon strings
Date: 01 Sep 2002 23:01:57 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com

D'Addario hard tension Pro Arte Composites have the following:

E - 15.8 lbs
B - 12.0 lbs
G - 13.1 lbs
D - 16.0 lbs
A - 16.6 lbs
E - 16.1 lbs

This is my usual string and I don't have the tensions of any others in front of
me. I use these on both of my flamenco guitars.

Dick Schneiders

From: Bruce Smith <baabin@earthlink...>
Subject: Re: Recommendations for nylon strings
Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 03:51:01 GMT
Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net

Jerry Ranch wrote:

> Hi all
> A friend loaned me his nylon stringed acoustic guitar.
> It needs new strings. I don't know squat about nylon stringed
> guitars..but I love the sound. "Change the World" sounds great on
> this instrument.
>
> I need recommendations for nylon strings...cost is irrelevant.
>
> Thanks
> Jerry

Jerry,

I quit looking after trying the GHs Vangard 2510 (Wound Third (G)
String) set. To me nothing comes close to quickness of settling in,
sustain, life, tone or any other area I can think of. I tried the range
of D'Addarios, Hannabach's, Savarez, Savarez Corum's, Augustine, La
Bella's, Thomastic Infeld's (IMHO the worst of the worst I tried - The
biggest rip off that ever existed). I documented my strings as far as
how long to settle in, life, tonality, intonation, volume, etc. on three
guitars that i owned, as well as the opinions of those who had tried the
GHs Vangards, and the top three were:
1. GHs 2510's
2 (Tie) Savarez Corum High Tensions and Hannabach 800 series (815's? I
didn't bring the record up for this e-mail).

Bruce Smith

Custom Nylon String Archtop Guitar - Two Questions [4]

From: Nick Naffin <cantanker@takenotepromotion...>
Subject: Custom Nylon String Archtop Guitar - Two Questions
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 12:57:05 -0500
Organization: Bell Sympatico

Hi all,
    please forgive the crosspost, but I think the questions in this post
really belong in these two newsgroups, rmmga and rmmgj.
    Before heading out to see a fine concert by the Richard Whiteman Trio,
featuring the obnoxiously talented messieurs Reg Schwager and Don Thompson
on guitar and bass, at the Amis du Jazz concert series in Sonya here in
beautiful, soggy Northern Central Ontario, yesterday my friendly
neighbourhood luthier Dino Staniscia and I met in his shop to pick the wood
for the top of a custom, 18 inch archtop cutaway nylon string guitar he'll
build for me.
    From where we're at right now, *very* tentatively called the 'Nicorette'
:-), this instrument will feature an exceptional Sitka spruce top (more
later), bird's eye maple back and sides, a Venetian cutaway, f-holes, wood
binding, and a sideport in the upper bout.
    Now, here's question 1)  Dino and I are very interested to hear if
anybody around here ever had any any experience with a Virzi tone producer
or derivative thereof.. We are seriously contemplating to put one in, and
are wondering if a) the different vibrational properties of nylon strings
might result in only certain frequencies or strings being picked up by the
Virzi, and b) what effect the tone producer might have on a possible inside
mic. Luthiers, collectors, players of vintage guitars - please do respond;
off-list, if you'd like, to
<nicorettenospamplease@nicknaffinhellisfullofspammers...> (you know what to
do), but maybe this is an interesting topic for the group(s).
    As reportedly described by old Gibson literature, a Virzi tone producer,
by the way, is "a simple device of wood, built in conformance with certain
scientific principles, and set within the body of the instrument, directly
under the bridge. The Tone Producer increases the amplitude of vibration of
the sounding board and the air-chamber, thereby increasing the amplitude, or
power of tone, of the resulting sound wave. It also increases the number,
and improves the proportion, of the over tones of the tone of the instrument
or the partial waves of the sound wave Thus, it secures a tone of more
richness, sonorouness and sweetness, in addition to increasing the volume of
tone. The Tone Producer is being successfully applied to pianos, violins,
and all stringed instruments with wood sounding-boards."
    Lloyd Loar was one of the luthiers experimenting with it; and as far as
I know, in Gibson's golden days there were only about 250 guitars built with
a tone producer in it. Today, it can still be found in many mandolins; but
I have not heard of any nylon string guitar featuring a Virzi. If you can
add any input or information here, I'd be most grateful.

2) The next question pertains to pickups. As you may be able to imagine,
an 18 inch archtop nylon string will sound pronouncedly different than a
flattop nylon string. I'm looking for ideas as to what kind of piezo to put
in. When last I tested one in Toronto, I did enjoy the sound of an i-Beam
on a demo Larrivee; mind you, that was a steel string model. So, I'm open
to all kinds of ideas and suggestions. Manufacturers, luthiers, and most of
all players, please put in your 2 cents. The last nylon string I admit to
playing on stage was a little Epiphone of sorts; before that, I used to own
a Yamaha. So I don't know about any good pickups for nylon strings (except
that the Fishman combination John McLaughlin used to use in his Wechters
sounded really quite nice. Personally, though, I suspect a mic inside an
archtop wouldn't do too much in terms of picking up more sweetness and
depth; but then, I really wouldn't know, as I've never seen or heard a
guitar like this); please, if you have any comments or suggestions, do help
us with your input, and contribute to the making of this very special
guitar.
    Thank you,
    Nick
_______________________
 www.nicknaffin.com
 Yes, it's back up and running!

From: Hojo2x <hojo2x@aol...>
Subject: Re: Custom Nylon String Archtop Guitar - Two Questions
Date: 11 Nov 2002 18:44:27 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com

Nick Naffin wrote:

>yesterday my friendly>neighbourhood luthier Dino Staniscia and I met in his
shop to pick the wood>for the top of a custom, 18 inch archtop cutaway nylon
string guitar he'll>build for me.

Quick question for YOU, Nick - why an 18 inch archtop with nylon strings? That
size seems to be the outer limit for steel stringed archtops. Has this
gentleman made nylon string archtops in that size before?

It would seem safer to go with a smaller size, since you're not going to be
able to exert as much force or transfer as much energy with nylon strings as
you can with steel.

Please understand that I'm not attacking the idea, just curious as to how you
all arrived at that size and design.

Nick continues:

> this instrument will feature an exceptional Sitka spruce top (more
>later), bird's eye maple back and sides, a Venetian cutaway, f-holes,
wood>binding, and a sideport in the upper bout.

Cool.

>Dino and I are very interested to hear if
>anybody around here ever had any any experience with a Virzi tone producer
>or derivative thereof..

Frankly, Nick, I haven't, because I'm never seen an original with a Virzi tone
producer still in place - they almost all got yanked out decades ago, and never
replaced. The only pristine examples seem to be in instruments that were
bought and then never played, which might tell you SOMEthing....

I've forwarded a copy of this reply to several folks who are deeply
knowledgeable about vintage Gibsons, in hopes that they might be able to
provide some insights more detailed than my vague "Gee, nobody ever seemed to
LIKE those" comments.

>2) The next question pertains to pickups.

I'd suggest that you look into the McIntyre Acoustic Feather, PUTW or some
other contact pickup. These work the same whether you're using steel or nylon
strings, as they attach to the underside of the top rather than to the bridge
itself.

Hope this helps.

Wade Hampton Miller
Chugiak, Alaska

From: Robert L. Abramowitz <abramowitz@att...>
Subject: Re: Custom Nylon String Archtop Guitar - Two Questions
Date: Mon, 11 Nov 2002 19:20:38 GMT
Organization: AT&T Worldnet

Nick Naffin wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> please forgive the crosspost, but I think the questions in this post
> really belong in these two newsgroups, rmmga and rmmgj.
>
> Before heading out to see a fine concert by the Richard Whiteman Trio,
> featuring the obnoxiously talented messieurs Reg Schwager and Don Thompson
> on guitar and bass, at the Amis du Jazz concert series in Sonya here in
> beautiful, soggy Northern Central Ontario, yesterday my friendly
> neighbourhood luthier Dino Staniscia and I met in his shop to pick the wood
> for the top of a custom, 18 inch archtop cutaway nylon string guitar he'll
> build for me.
>
> From where we're at right now, very tentatively called the 'Nicorette'
> :-), this instrument will feature an exceptional Sitka spruce top (more
> later), bird's eye maple back and sides, a Venetian cutaway, f-holes, wood
> binding, and a sideport in the upper bout.
>
> Now, here's question 1) Dino and I are very interested to hear if
> anybody around here ever had any any experience with a Virzi tone producer
> or derivative thereof.. We are seriously contemplating to put one in, and
> are wondering if a) the different vibrational properties of nylon strings
> might result in only certain frequencies or strings being picked up by the
> Virzi, and b) what effect the tone producer might have on a possible inside
> mic. Luthiers, collectors, players of vintage guitars - please do respond;
> off-list, if you'd like, to
> <nicorettenospamplease@nicknaffinhellisfullofspammers...> (you know what to
> do), but maybe this is an interesting topic for the group(s).
>
> As reportedly described by old Gibson literature, a Virzi tone producer,
> by the way, is "a simple device of wood, built in conformance with certain
> scientific principles, and set within the body of the instrument, directly
> under the bridge. The Tone Producer increases the amplitude of vibration of
> the sounding board and the air-chamber, thereby increasing the amplitude, or
> power of tone, of the resulting sound wave. It also increases the number,
> and improves the proportion, of the over tones of the tone of the instrument
> or the partial waves of the sound wave Thus, it secures a tone of more
> richness, sonorouness and sweetness, in addition to increasing the volume of
> tone. The Tone Producer is being successfully applied to pianos, violins,
> and all stringed instruments with wood sounding-boards."
>
> Lloyd Loar was one of the luthiers experimenting with it; and as far as
> I know, in Gibson's golden days there were only about 250 guitars built with
> a tone producer in it. Today, it can still be found in many mandolins; but
> I have not heard of any nylon string guitar featuring a Virzi. If you can
> add any input or information here, I'd be most grateful.
>
> 2) The next question pertains to pickups. As you may be able to imagine,
> an 18 inch archtop nylon string will sound pronouncedly different than a
> flattop nylon string. I'm looking for ideas as to what kind of piezo to put
> in. When last I tested one in Toronto, I did enjoy the sound of an i-Beam
> on a demo Larrivee; mind you, that was a steel string model. So, I'm open
> to all kinds of ideas and suggestions. Manufacturers, luthiers, and most of
> all players, please put in your 2 cents. The last nylon string I admit to
> playing on stage was a little Epiphone of sorts; before that, I used to own
> a Yamaha. So I don't know about any good pickups for nylon strings (except
> that the Fishman combination John McLaughlin used to use in his Wechters
> sounded really quite nice. Personally, though, I suspect a mic inside an
> archtop wouldn't do too much in terms of picking up more sweetness and
> depth; but then, I really wouldn't know, as I've never seen or heard a
> guitar like this); please, if you have any comments or suggestions, do help
> us with your input, and contribute to the making of this very special
> guitar.
>

Nick, the only Virzis I've ever seen have been in Loar F-5 mandolins
and 1 H-5 mandola, so I'm not qualified to comment in their influence on
a guitar, not to mention a nylon-string guitar. I have met in my
lifetime two F-5 owners who removed their Virzis, and both were happy
that they did so. A lot of bluegrass types call them "Virzi tone
reducers".

But I really wanted to second Wade Miller's concern about the wisdom and
logic behind an 18" nylon-string guitar (with steel I'd understand).
That's a hell of a lot of wood to drive with not a great deal of
downward pressure.. Since I know that you are not a newbie at this, I'd
like to ask why you and/or your luthier chose this route.

Thanks,

Bob Abramowitz

From: Leo Anderson <shockdyno@aol...>
Subject: Re: Custom Nylon String Archtop Guitar - Two Questions
Date: 11 Nov 2002 19:26:26 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com

Nick wrote: > Now, here's question 1) Dino and I are very interested to hear
if
>anybody around here ever had any any experience with a Virzi tone producer
>or derivative thereof..

Vintage dealers and musicians refer to them as "Virzi tone reducers".

Leo in Tucson

Ramirez R2's [4]

From: Stephen Boyke <sdelsolray@attbi...>
Subject: Re: Ramirez R2's
Date: Sun, 08 Dec 2002 21:33:53 GMT
Organization: AT&T Broadband

in article <20021208153238.19726.00000608@mb-ba...>, Bob Males at
<bobmales@aol...> wrote on 12/8/02 12:32 PM:

> Someone on RMMGA is selling one of these on EBay. The R2's.. are they well
> regarded?
    Mid-level student model from the most famous classical guitar shop on he
planet. Ramirez makes 4 student models, R-1, -2, -3 and -4. I believe some
of these are made out of shop (but still in Spain) by luthier students or
subcontractors. Decent guitars, clearly in the Spanish (Torres) style.
    The Ramirez concert models, like the 1a, are astounding.
--
Stephen T. Boyke

From: Chris Callahan <chriscal@NOS_PAMrfci...>
Subject: Re: Ramirez R2's
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 06:20:45 -0500

I was underwhelmed by the Ramirez R series (student series) when I played
them years ago in Madrid. Good values then, based upon the exchange rate, I
think they're likely overpriced now. The R-4 is solid Indian rosewood and
spanish cedar and not bad. ( I personally think the sound a bit "muddy",
though, and gave my 31 year old R-4 to my stepson as a Christmas gift a
couple of years ago.)

The R-2 has a laminated back and sides if I recall.

Chris

"Stephen Boyke" <<sdelsolray@attbi...>> wrote in message
news:BA18FAC0.CFE4%<sdelsolray@attbi...>...
> in article <20021208153238.19726.00000608@mb-ba...>, Bob Males at
> <bobmales@aol...> wrote on 12/8/02 12:32 PM:
>
> > Someone on RMMGA is selling one of these on EBay. The R2's.. are they
well
> > regarded?
>
> Mid-level student model from the most famous classical guitar shop on
he
> planet. Ramirez makes 4 student models, R-1, -2, -3 and -4. I believe
some
> of these are made out of shop (but still in Spain) by luthier students or
> subcontractors. Decent guitars, clearly in the Spanish (Torres) style.
>
> The Ramirez concert models, like the 1a, are astounding.
> --
> Stephen T. Boyke
>
>

From: PKing26588 <pking26588@aol...>
Subject: Re: Ramirez R2's
Date: 09 Dec 2002 13:26:21 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com

Chris Callahan writes:>
The R-4 is solid Indian rosewood and
>spanish cedar and not bad. ( I personally think the sound a bit "muddy",
>though, and gave my 31 year old R-4 to my stepson as a Christmas gift a
>couple of years ago.)

I was really impressed with the sound of the R-4 a few years back until I A/B'd
 with a 1a. There are light years of difference
between them.

Paul K.

From: Chris Callahan <chriscal@NO_SPAMrfci...>
Subject: Re: Ramirez R2's
Date: Mon, 9 Dec 2002 11:40:08 -0500

">
> I was really impressed with the sound of the R-4 a few years back until I
A/B'd
> with a 1a. There are light years of difference
> between them.
>
> Paul K.

I agree with you. I thought the R-4 had a nice rich "mellow" sound, which
may have been too mellow. Lacked crispness and zip, but it worked well on
slow songs. Maybe it also was my setup, and higher action than I like, but I
thought it was a "slow playing" guitar.

Because of the wide neck, which actually is a fraction over 2 inches (and
uncomfortable for me to play with small hands) and wanting a brisker sound,
I'm having Roy McAlister make me a nylon string guitar with a 1 7/8 inch
neck and spruce top. I was delighted with the prior semi baritone guitar I
had him build (and still am), and I'm confident he can build to perfection
most anything.

Chris

inexspensive classical guitars??

From: Greg Z <gzinkman@Yahoody...>
Subject: Re: inexspensive classical guitars??
Date: Sun, 26 Jan 2003 12:56:05 GMT
Organization: AT&T Broadband

"JJNeet1" :
> I'm thinking about getting a classical guitar.I've been playing for
quite a
> while,but never owned a classical.I don't want to spend a bunch on it,and
I'm
> looking for suggestions.
> Thanks, Jon Neet

Hey Jon,
     The parent company of Seagull, Lasido, makes a line of classicals
called
La Patrie. I don't know of a web site, but Steve at Acoustic Axis, a very
rmmga friendly guy and dealer of high repute carries them. And Lasido's
guitars are usually a pretty good bang for the buck.
http://www.acousticaxis.com

Greg Z

Guitar Review - Woodley White Classical

From: Rebecca Pushkin <rpushkin@earthlink...>
Subject: Re: Guitar Review - Woodley White Classical
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 22:16:02 GMT
Organization: EarthLink Inc. -- http://www.EarthLink.net

Corbeau wrote:

>I sold my Braz/Euro Spruce Traphagen a while back and replaced it with
>a guitar built by Portland, OR luthier Woodley White. I've had the
>White guitar about two months and thought I should post a review and
>pics since I haven't seen him mentioned before.
>
>First the sound:
>I was never able to 'bond' with the previous guitar even though it was
>a fine instrument. However, I liked the White from the very first.
>It's got exceptional tone, very punchy if not hugely loud. The bass
>is solid, full and well integrated with the mid-range, no complaints
>there. Trebles are very clear, nicely separated and ring beautifully.
>Overall, the guitar sounds great, less reserved than expected given
>the newness of the spruce top. I still expect more complexity to
>develop over the next year. The only fault I have found is that in a
>couple spots, the D# sounds veeery slightly 'hot'. I don't know how
>to explain it otherwise. My instructor says you have to be really
>looking for it to notice and for me to shut up and quit obsessing...
>
>Cosmetics:
>The fit and finish is very, very good. It's slightly more decorative
>than many classicals which are often very spartan in appearance.
>Woodley has two models, 'German' and 'Italian', both of which are
>based on a '43 Hauser. Mine is the Italian, hence the less reserved
>in appearance. <g>
>
>Specifics:
>Swiss Spruce top, African Blackwood back and sides and headstock
>veneer (front & back) Koa purfling, mahogany neck. Mine came with
>incredible Rodgers tuners with sterling silver baseplates machined to
>match the shape of the headstock. The buttons are Koa to match the
>purfling.
>
>I bought the guitar through Guitars International but have since
>corresponded with Woodley via email. He is friendly and responsive
>and my impression is that he would be very easy to work with directly.
>He is a student of Jeff Elliot, the famous Portland luthier and it's
>noticeable in the attention to detail. He also makes steel string and
>electric!! guitars as shown on his website:
>http://www.whiteguitars.com/gallery.htm
>
>I had a terrible time getting a pic of the back but wanted to show the
>understated elegance of the African Blackwood. The light colored area
>is glare, not an imperfection in the french polish. Here are pics of
>my instrument:
>http://www.crowmountain.net/Guitar/WhiteGuitar/index.html
>
>Now once my Walker SJ gets here, I should be set for a long, long
>time. Next year at least...
>

Hi Thomas,

What an elegant guitar! The rosette is to die for...
I hope you enjoy it --
Becka :)

Nylon string suggestions?? [9]

From: Jim Ellis <jde1@nospam...>
Subject: Nylon string suggestions??
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 08:53:18 -0500
Organization: Penn State University, Center for Academic Computing

Posted for my kid brother (still, almost as old as dirt!).

Based on the benificence of Unkle Sam, he now has a bit of spending money.
He has a T**lor 514 CE, and really likes the brand. His current nylon is an
Alvarez-Yairi, which I thought was an excellent-sounding guitar. He's really
looking at the T**lor nylon model, which I remember has been regarded by
most players as "OK, but there are better choices".

The only classical builder I know of is Ramirez, at least in the $2500
range. Are there other high-quality builders that he should look at before
buying the T**lor? (I thought that having a custom-built would be a nice
choice, myself...) One attraction of the T**lor is the pre-included
electronics...

Thanks in advance,

Jim

From: Greg Z <gzinkman@Yahoody...>
Subject: Re: Nylon string suggestions??
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 14:02:53 GMT
Organization: AT&T Broadband

> Are there other high-quality builders that he should look at before
> buying the T**lor? (I thought that having a custom-built would be a nice
> choice, myself...) One attraction of the T**lor is the pre-included
> electronics...

Jim,
     A friend of mine has a Kenny Hill and really likes it.  I believe
he is in sunny California.

Greg in cold Mass.
50 degr. yesterday, 6 this am (below 0 wind chill)

From: David Kilpatrick <iconmags2@btconnect...>
Subject: Re: Nylon string suggestions??
Date: Mon, 3 Mar 2003 15:13:39 +0000 (UTC)
Organization: Icon Publications Limited

Jim Ellis wrote:
> Posted for my kid brother (still, almost as old as dirt!).
>
> Based on the benificence of Unkle Sam, he now has a bit of spending money.
> He has a T**lor 514 CE, and really likes the brand. His current nylon is an
> Alvarez-Yairi, which I thought was an excellent-sounding guitar. He's really
> looking at the T**lor nylon model, which I remember has been regarded by
> most players as "OK, but there are better choices".
>
> The only classical builder I know of is Ramirez, at least in the $2500
> range. Are there other high-quality builders that he should look at before
> buying the T**lor? (I thought that having a custom-built would be a nice
> choice, myself...) One attraction of the T**lor is the pre-included
> electronics...
>
Yes, a Lowden S25J while you can still get one. $2500 may be pushing it
but s/h ones appear
at around that price in mint condition. Superior to any of the above,
and with George Lowden parting company with the factory, likely to be
not only a rather specialist Lowden of the 1990s-03 era, but unrepeated
in any form in future.

David

From: rtmca <rtmca@yahoo...>
Subject: Re: Nylon string suggestions??
Date: 3 Mar 2003 09:33:21 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com/

"Jim Ellis" <<jde1@nospam...>> wrote in message news:<b3vmm4$ He's really
> looking at the T**lor nylon model,
IMHO this is one of the worst sounding classicals out there.

I had a $4000 Ramirez and when I played a used Larrivee L-35 I
immediately traded for it.
The L-35s were handmade personally by Jean Larrivee (not his assembly
line, by him alone) and are a bold, tight in the bass and sweet and
complex in the highs. Projects fantastically. I MENTION THIS BECASUE
IT IS THE MOST UNDERRATED GUITAR I'VE COME ACROSS. Most guitars of
this quality can't be touched used for under 5K. I was browsing the
web and came across one with a reserve of 2K. A great deal. When they
wee made--larrivee stopped in the 90's they retailed fopr $3700.
Honestly, I know nothing of the listed guitar or seller, just saw it
on the web browsing. I just can't keep queit knowing that this great
instrument is listed. I repeat--I'd don't know anything about the
seller or the particular listing. But it is hard to find these and
these are magnificent instruments:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2511775999&category=2385>
Robert McArthur

From: rtmca <rtmca@yahoo...>
Subject: Re: Nylon string suggestions??
Date: 3 Mar 2003 12:10:06 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com/

A follow-up to my post re. the Larrivee L-35.
I found a review on the web of that model guitar (which again, is an
awesome instrument):
http://www.musicgearreview.com/review-display/4362.html
R.

From: foldedpath <mbarrs@NOSPAM...>
Subject: Re: Nylon string suggestions??
Date: Mon, 03 Mar 2003 22:22:42 -0000
Organization: Posted via Supernews, http://www.supernews.com

"Jim Ellis" <<jde1@nospam...>> wrote in
news:b3vmm4$17vc$<1@f04n12...>:

> Posted for my kid brother (still, almost as old as dirt!).
>
> Based on the benificence of Unkle Sam, he now has a bit of spending
> money. He has a T**lor 514 CE, and really likes the brand. His current
> nylon is an Alvarez-Yairi, which I thought was an excellent-sounding
> guitar. He's really looking at the T**lor nylon model, which I
> remember has been regarded by most players as "OK, but there are
> better choices".
>
> The only classical builder I know of is Ramirez, at least in the $2500
> range. Are there other high-quality builders that he should look at
> before buying the T**lor? (I thought that having a custom-built would
> be a nice choice, myself...) One attraction of the T**lor is the
> pre-included electronics...

Hi Jim,

A long post here, but it's a subject I've been focusing on recently.

Search the Google Usenet RMMGA archive for opinions about the Taylor nylon
string guitars. You'll get some interesting views there. :-)

FWIW, here's my opinion based on a recent test drive. I've only been able
to play one example so far, the Taylor Ovangkol/Spruce model.

The playability was very good, especially for a steel string "transition"
player like me. The action was nice, and the neck was comfortable. Neck
width is 1 7/8" at the nut, but I didn't have any trouble getting complex
fingerings without any buzzing from adjoining strings. On the other hand,
my fingertips aren't very fat, so this neck width may be a little narrow
for the fat-fingered player.

Where the Taylor falls apart is the acoustic tone, which stunk on ice
(IMO). The bass strings weren't too bad, but there was ZERO brilliance or
resonance in the upper strings. It sounded flat and boring, like a
cardboard cigar box strung up with nylon. It also didn't put out much
acoustic volume compared to other guitars in the same price range. Even
cheap beginner-grade Takamine and Yamaha classical guitars sound better to
my ears. The one thing the Taylor nylon string has to offer is that easy
neck feel, if you're coming from the world of steel string or electric
guitars. I suppose they'll sell a few of these to people who can't navigate
a traditional classical guitar neck, and who always play plugged in.

Speaking of which... I didn't check out the amplified sound because the
acoustic tone was so bad. It might be a killer stage instrument for all I
know, but I was looking for something that would also be acoustically
inspiring.

So that's one person's opinion... YMMV, etc.

I've been looking for a nylon string guitar for the last couple of months.
I haven't had much success so far (partly because I'm still trying to learn
about these beasts, and figure out what I really need), but I did find a
few things you may want to check out:

* A recent RMMGA post mentioned Tacoma nylon string guitars. There is a
satin-finished rosewood/cedar model for just over $1,000 (US), and a gloss-
finished rosewood/spruce model for somewhere around the $1,700 zone. I
haven't been able to try one myself, but it's rumored to sound much better
than the Taylor.

* Kenny Hill classicals have a fairly good reputation, and some of his
Mexican-made/California-finished versions are available for under $2,000. I
played a "Munich" model that I thought sounded pretty good. There is a
cutaway version of the Munich called the "La Curva." Both models sell in
the $1,700 - $1,900 zone, depending on the store and how deeply they
discount. Your brother would need an aftermarket pickup, but that's a
better way to go anyway (IMO). If I don't find anything locally that knocks
me out, I may end up with a Hill "La Curva." The only thing stopping me at
the moment is that I've heard they can be inconsistent in quality, and I'm
still looking for the cutaway version to try in person.

* German Vasquez Rubio - originally from Paracho Mexico and now building in
California. Very good guitars in the neighborhood of $2,400.

There is a bewildering variety of small shop classicals made in Spain and
selling for $1,500 - $2,500 (and up), but I don't know the market well
enough yet to recommend anything specific. The tone can be very good on
these instruments, but the finish quality and playability are sometimes
rough, if the ones I've played are any indication. These student grade
Spanish classicals are the reverse of the Taylor -- they have generally
good tone, but "iffy" finish and playability. I'd suggest trying a Tacoma
nylon string or a Kenny Hill model first. If neither one floats your boat,
then start trying the smaller-shop Spanish guitars. You will probably have
to rely on the advice of a good specialist glassical guitar shop
salesperson to help you pick the right one.

Here are a few places you can find the Kenny Hill and similarly-priced
classical guitars online. I'm leaving out the shops that focus mainly on
the high-end stuff. I think all these shops will let you buy on approval:

http://www.classicguitar.com/
http://www.classicalguitarshop.com/
http://www.guitarsalon.com/
http://www.classicalguitarstore.com/opening.html

Good luck!

--
Mike Barrs

From: William D Clinger <cesura@qnci...>
Subject: Re: Nylon string suggestions??
Date: 3 Mar 2003 19:33:53 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com/

> Based on the benificence of Unkle Sam, he now has a bit of spending
> money. He has a T**lor 514 CE, and really likes the brand. His current
> nylon is an Alvarez-Yairi, which I thought was an excellent-sounding
> guitar.

Alvarez-Yairi classicals are well-regarded. Given that his current
Alvarez-Yairi sounds good, I doubt whether a Taylor nylon-string is
likely to sound significantly better.

Concerning the Taylor nylons, Mike Barrs wrote:
> It also didn't put out much
> acoustic volume compared to other guitars in the same price range.

That's my impression also.

Tone is subjective. IMO the one Taylor nylon that I have played
didn't sound bad, but it sounded kind of neutral and didn't have
a lot of character either. Character isn't always a good thing;
sometimes neutral is better.

> * A recent RMMGA post mentioned Tacoma nylon string guitars.

Personally I preferred the sound of the Taylor nylon to the tone
of the Tacoma nylon-string. YMMV.

I do think that, for the money, you can probably do better than the
Taylor nylon-string, but you'll have to shop around. Semi-classical
guitars are kind of a specialty item, and a good one is harder to
find than a straight classical.

Will

From: rtmca <rtmca@yahoo...>
Subject: Re: Nylon string suggestions??
Date: 4 Mar 2003 04:15:02 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com/

<cesura@qnci...> (William D Clinger) wrote in message .
>
> Alvarez-Yairi classicals are well-regarded. Given that his current
> Alvarez-Yairi sounds good, I doubt whether a Taylor nylon-string is
> likely to sound significantly better.
The original poster's statement that Taylor's classicals were regarded
as "okay" mystifies me. They have received farily consistent thumbs
down here.
I have a friend with a Yari YJ160--It sounds great. In a blindfold
test I would imagine the Taylor would sound like a pawnshop reject and
the Yari like a Ramirez. Definately a slide down to go to a taylor.
Taylor classicals must be for those wishing to amplify. Otherwise I
just don't get it, other than the name appeal. But then those wishing
to amplify could go with a much better Godin, Sand, Gibson Chet or
even Ovation (I can't beleive I just recommended an ovation over
anything, but there it is). If you don;t want to bid on the Larrivee
above (they are rare and no longer made) contact Paul McGill. He's a
master classical builder. I've played one of his and they are
excellent.
Robert

From: Richard Brooker <vejup@optonline...>
Subject: Re: Nylon string suggestions??
Date: 4 Mar 2003 06:38:03 -0800
Organization: http://groups.google.com/

Hi Jim.

A few years ago I looked for a good low end classical in the budget
$1K range. The best thing I found was an all solid wood Raimundo model
146. It has a nice warm tone - more than the Japanese guitars I tried
in the same price range. No electronics though, and I chose not to add
any - for that I also play an Alvarez-Yairi CY-127CE - it has a very
fast and friendly neck.

The Lowden S25J is a wonderful guitar, and used ones show up on eBay
at times. They are a bit of a hybrid though (chamfered not flat neck),
and not for everyone. They come with electronics built in. The S25J
has a beautiful tone for recording - check out David Kilpatrick's CDs
- it sounds gorgeous!

Good luck, let us know what you find out there.

Richard Brooker

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