| Want to install B-Band [7] |
|---|
From: Ville Nummela <vnummela@xxxomega...>
Subject: Re: Want to install B-Band
Date: 27 Jan 1999 13:21:54 +0200
Organization: Tampere Univ. of Technology
"Ray Polakovic" <<rayp@accessone...>> writes:
> I want one of these things, too, and I'm having the same problem.
> Every dealer I goes to says: "wow, what a great idea! But I've
> never heard of it." I'm hoping next week's NAMM takes care of the
> ignorance. I'm still concerned about installation. From prior
> posts, I gather that there's a little trick to installing these
> things. Any ideas where I could get this thing installed in the NW?
> I have a Larrivee C-10 Koa.
B-Band installs just like an ordinary piezo transducer. About 90 %
of the rewievs in this NG say that the process was quick and easy -
easier than most piezos.
Some individual bridges do seem to be giving B-Band a hard time
though. This type of electret condenser film transducer is capable of
much greater accuracy than the piezo crystal equivalent. Hence the
nice sound. Unfortunately, the great sensitivity also makes this
element somewhat more prone to trouble. Every now and then you really
have got to work to get it right, as it can be extremely difficult to
pinpoint the source.
Fortunately this does not happen terribly often. Any experienced
luthier / repairsperson with good ears can do it, and if trouble
comes, you just keep tweaking it until you get it right. Wooden and
metal shims can be useful, as well as tiny pieces of Post-It notes -
whatever that works.
Tom Loredo, Larry Pattis and I have posted pretty thorough articles on
this over the last year or so. A dejanews power search should find
them all.
GFTT (uwp)
Ville# Ville.Nummela"at"iki.fi ("at"=@) http://www.iki.fi/vnummela/
# Note: To reduce spam, my return address has been modified.
# Tampere University of Technology, Finland. All opinions are mine.
# MAKE MONEY FAST (Hall of Humiliation): http://ga.to/mmf/
From: John Z <ccm_touchesNOSPAM@hotmail...>
Subject: Re: Want to install B-Band
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:19:13 GMT
Organization: Ohio University C.S. Dept, Athens
I think the key to successful B-Band installation is ensuring that the
bottom of the saddle is perfectly flat. It also follows that the
bottom of the saddle slot should be perfectly flat. Also that the
saddle sits on the electret element firmly i.e. a perfect sandwich
(this can be a problem with a wiggly saddle fit - easily remedied by
proper settling) If you achieve this, you will not even need to use
shims to get good balance. I think the fact that the B-Band is so thin
and stiff is why this is important, not it's sensitivity (though
B-Bands are wonderfully sensitive).
Taking care in preparing the saddle ensures an easy, quick and great
sounding B-Band installation.
Regards ,
John
PS. Hey Ville - you used an acronym I'm not familiar with. What is
GFTT (uwp) ...
just curious I got the "go for the tone" partt ........ what's (uwp)?
On 27 Jan 1999 13:21:54 +0200, Ville Nummela
<<vnummela@xxxomega...>> wrote:
>"Ray Polakovic" <<rayp@accessone...>> writes:
>
>> I want one of these things, too, and I'm having the same problem.
>> Every dealer I goes to says: "wow, what a great idea! But I've
>> never heard of it." I'm hoping next week's NAMM takes care of the
>> ignorance. I'm still concerned about installation. From prior
>> posts, I gather that there's a little trick to installing these
>> things. Any ideas where I could get this thing installed in the NW?
>> I have a Larrivee C-10 Koa.
>
>B-Band installs just like an ordinary piezo transducer. About 90 %
>of the rewievs in this NG say that the process was quick and easy -
>easier than most piezos.
>
>Some individual bridges do seem to be giving B-Band a hard time
>though. This type of electret condenser film transducer is capable of
>much greater accuracy than the piezo crystal equivalent. Hence the
>nice sound. Unfortunately, the great sensitivity also makes this
>element somewhat more prone to trouble. Every now and then you really
>have got to work to get it right, as it can be extremely difficult to
>pinpoint the source.
>
>Fortunately this does not happen terribly often. Any experienced
>luthier / repairsperson with good ears can do it, and if trouble
>comes, you just keep tweaking it until you get it right. Wooden and
>metal shims can be useful, as well as tiny pieces of Post-It notes -
>whatever that works.
>
>Tom Loredo, Larry Pattis and I have posted pretty thorough articles on
>this over the last year or so. A dejanews power search should find
>them all.
>
>GFTT (uwp)
>
> Ville
>
># Ville.Nummela"at"iki.fi ("at"=@) http://www.iki.fi/vnummela/
># Note: To reduce spam, my return address has been modified.
># Tampere University of Technology, Finland. All opinions are mine.
># MAKE MONEY FAST (Hall of Humiliation): http://ga.to/mmf/
From: Jay Adair <oja@flash...>
Subject: Re: Want to install B-Band
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:24:59 GMT
Organization: FlashNet Communications, http://www.flash.net
>Taking care in preparing the saddle ensures an easy, quick and great
>sounding B-Band installation.
>
Well, almost easy & quick. First B-Band installed in a Breedlove Ed Gerhard
and went very smoothly, with no "tweaking" needed. Good sound & good
balance across all strings. String volume uniform and pleasant.
Second B-Band installed in a Goodall standard, and I am still working to get
the strings balanced. Yes, the saddle is flatter than Dick's hatband, and
the slot is flat as well, but for some reason the high E-string is barely
audible and the D-string can be heard in remote parts of Brazil when the
wind is right.
But when it gets adjusted just "right" it is very nice......noticeably
better than my Fishman undersaddle pickups.
Jay
From: Larry Pattis <abuse@127...>
Subject: Re: Want to install B-Band
Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 18:15:49 -0700
Organization: XMission http://www.xmission.com/
In article <fKJr2.8966$t%.<780@news...>>, "Jay Adair" <<oja@flash...>>
wrote:
> >Taking care in preparing the saddle ensures an easy, quick and great
> >sounding B-Band installation.
> >
> Well, almost easy & quick. First B-Band installed in a Breedlove Ed Gerhard
> and went very smoothly, with no "tweaking" needed. Good sound & good
> balance across all strings. String volume uniform and pleasant.
>
> Second B-Band installed in a Goodall standard, and I am still working to get
> the strings balanced. Yes, the saddle is flatter than Dick's hatband, and
> the slot is flat as well, but for some reason the high E-string is barely
> audible and the D-string can be heard in remote parts of Brazil when the
> wind is right.
>
> But when it gets adjusted just "right" it is very nice......noticeably
> better than my Fishman undersaddle pickups.
>
> Jay
Jay,
I'll bet, believe it or not, that both the D and E string need shims. When
the high E string is quiet, it generally needs extra pressure to increase
the pick-up's sensitivity. When another string (especially Low E, A, or D)
is loud, added pressure somehow reduces the flow of "signal". Ville could
explain the technical side of this, I am hoping the practical answer is
helpful.
Also, if you add shims I recommend the sticky part of post-it notes, added
right to the TOP of the B-band element. And DON'T be shy, add a couple of
thicknesses at once to see if any change occurs.
Larry Pattis
Lpattis "at" xmission "dot" com
Liberal Palette Records
http://liberalpalette.com
"Music Without Borders"
From: <ccm_touchesNOSPAM@hotmail...> (John Z)
Subject: Put a B-Band in my 12 string - results
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:43:57 GMT
Organization: Ohio University C.S. Dept, Athens
Newsgroups: rec.music.makers.guitar.acoustic
Hi folks,
I just installed a B-Band in my Sigma rosewood 12 string (the one I
picked up a while back for a song), and it sounds great.
This time, I did not have to do any adjustment or fiddling to get a
good balance of volume between the strings. I did make sure that the
bottom of the saddle (I had fashoined a bone saddle for it) was nice
and flat, and I suppose the bottom of the saddle slot was pretty flat,
because I didn't do any touch-up routing.
Well, I got the thing finished at about 10:30 last night, and plugged
in to my son's Crate amp to test it (my kids have the amps, Dad can't
afford his own <grin>) and that guitar just sang so nicely. I have to
say that the B-Band is quite an amazing little creature.. I don't know
how it gives such a natural sound without a mike in tandem.
Thought I'd share this nice experience.
Can't wait to try it with the P.A. at church!
John Zyla
From: Al Carruth <alcarruth@aol...>
Subject: Re: Want to install B-Band
Date: 1 Feb 1999 21:21:43 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
I once had some problems with another piezo instalation where the high and low
Es dropped out. Everything checked out flat when the strings were off, but they
simply wouldn't sound. We finally noticed that the piezo worked fine when the
strings were slack, but not when they were tight. There was enough disotrtion
inthe top from the stringtension to bow up themiddleof the bridge, and
eliminate the pressure on the outside strings. The saddle had to be slotted to
make it work.
I just pu ta B-band in a guitar I'm making for Chuck Brodsky, and it seems to
work fine. There's enough meat in the bridge on this one, I guess....
Alan Carruth / Luthier
From: Slcss98808 <slcss98808@aol...>
Subject: Re: Want to install B-Band
Date: 2 Feb 1999 12:52:43 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Youch! Hearing you talking about gluing the pickup in makes me a little
scared. I had much trouble with the b band on my Taylor. Opposite problem to
you - my low strings were quiet and the treble guys were loud. We fixed it by
sanding the bottom of the saddle at an angle. Turns out it was leaning over
(away from the bridge) and by matching the lean on the bottom, we had it
sitting nice and straight. This solved the problem perfectly.
I don't know if this helps...
Steve
Work like you don't need money, Love like you've never been
hurt, And dance like no one's watching
From: John Z <ccm_touchesNOSPAM@hotmail...>
Subject: Re: Want to install B-Band
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 1999 13:45:54 GMT
Organization: Ohio University C.S. Dept, Athens
On Tue, 02 Feb 1999 01:14:02 GMT, "Jay Adair" <<oja@flash...>> wrote:
<snip>
>John,
>
>Everything about the guitar's set-up was as perfect as my eyes and ears were
>able to discern prior to the B-Band installation. No loud or muted strings,
>saddle snug in the slot, no string buzz, sustain as long as a Baptist
>preacher's sermon, etc. I have wondered if glueing the B-Band to the bottom
>of the slot would eliminate some of the possible variances in string volume
>adjustments. Hopefully, that would create a "solid" base from which to
>work, shimming between the pickup and saddle as needed, assuming no dead-air
>space under the pickup. but if things went awry with the glueing....OUCH.
>
>I have just changed strings (Elixr's light tops / medium bottoms) from a
>freebie set of John Pearse Lights and things are a bit better - string
>volume a little closer to uniform, but the high-E is still too quiet and the
>D-string still a bit too boisterous. But since I don't plug in real often,
>I'm kinda putting off re-working the shims until a rainy day. This Goodall
>sounds so sweet by itself, unless I really need to annoy my wife in the
>other room, I tend to skip the amp most days. Especially with Valentine's
>Day coming up......
>
>Jay
>
Jay,
Alan Carruth recounted an experience earlier in this thread that shed
some light on why under-saddle pickups may have balancing problems,
even with the saddle and slot are flat as can be. I also have a
suggestion, a method I used in the b-band installation on my six
string. I Modified my saddle so it was similar (although not exactly)
to a Fishman cleartone saddle. I use only bone for my saddles, and I
was having problems with balancing the thing. Since I have an aversion
to using shims (don't ask me why, I'm just weird about that) I decided
to try modifying the saddle with a triangular file, cutting a medium
to deep inverted "v" shape in the bottom of the saddle, in the space
between where the strings lie on top. Depth about 2-3 mm for my
saddle. This did promptly solve the balance problems I had. Now, in
an attempt to explain "why" this works, absent an analysis with
sophisticated instrumentation that I don't have, I hypothesize that by
cutting the inverted "V" slots on the bottom, I am allowing the string
tension on the top of the saddle to "flex" the saddle ever so slightly
along it's long axis, in essence performing the same function that
shims do. This made more sense to me after I read the post by Alan
Carruth. I think I'll experiment with another saddle blank, and
instead of cutting inverted "v"'s, just cut 2'3 mm slots with a nice
sharp flush cutting saw I got for christmas. I think the results might
be better. I enjoy experimenting, and am inclined to try stuff like
this when I change strings - bone saddle blanks are cheap,
compensating doesn't take too long ......
Anyone else have thoughts on this?
Regards,
John Zyla
| Bob's B-band, Baggs, Trance Dilemna |
|---|
From: Slcss98808 <slcss98808@aol...>
Subject: Bob's B-band, Baggs, Trance Dilemna
Date: 3 Feb 1999 23:47:53 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Hi Bob,
I replied to your email, then my win98 crashed and rather than retrieve old
messages, I figured it would be easier to just start again.
I was in your boat a couple of months ago and managed to come up with the best
of both worlds.
Larry is partially correct in that the Baggs standardly mixes both signals and
comes out mono, but he may not realize that since summer of 98, Baggs has made
their dual source with a stereo option that will send out two separate signals
through a stereo cord. So it is a little more flexible than people realize.
B-band has made a few (and is apparently going to produce) PR systems which are
"Pick up replacement systems." It is basically a b band with a little preamp
that boosts the signal so it can be run through other companies' (such as
Baggs) preamp and blending systems. I tracked one down with the help of Tom
Loredo and bought it privately off Rocky Jones. I'm not sure if he has
another. If he doesn't, email B-Band (EMF) and they'll build you one! Very
helpful guys.
So anyway, I ended up with the Baggs blending dual source unit with the B band
saddle pu. Beware though, as Larry said, B band cannot plug straight into any
other preamp so you'll need the PR system from them.
I agree that the Baggs mic is limited - it does the job for me for now and when
I'm rich and famous, I'll upgrade to a Mills, switch the ole Baggs over to
stereo and run it all through a Rane AP13!!!!
Anyway, I love the convenience of the baggs on board remote and it is pretty
much non invasive (would probably leave glue stains....) but the B band is
defintely a finer sounding saddle system than the Baggs. I checked it against
my friend's Baggs system and also two local guitar techs both commented on the
sound. Very warm and natural.
As for installation, the PR system simply needs to be soldered into a little
plug and into the battery terminal. It comes with specific instructions.
best wishes
Steve
| B-Band vs Baggs vs Trace |
|---|
From: Larry Pattis <abuse@127...>
Subject: Re: B-Band vs Baggs vs Trace
Date: Wed, 03 Feb 1999 17:00:46 -0700
Organization: XMission http://www.xmission.com/
In article <bq%t2.197$<mw1.1356@news...>>, "Mark Gottlieb"
<<sales@clairebell...>> wrote:
> If you purchase the B-Band mike combo all you the need is a pocket blender
> (Fishman) which you can mount on a mike stand. You can easily reach this
> during a song and you have not cut any holes in you guitar. Plus you have
> all the tone controls and gain controls and notch filter, etc...
>
> Mark Gottlieb
>
> Bob Lusk wrote in message <<19990203113442.26745.00000161@ng-fq1...>>...
> >>The Baggs mic is mounted in a block of foam and once mounted cannot be
> easily
> >repositioned or removed.
> >How is the B-Band mounted?
> >>If you want controls on or in your guitar you will have to give up
> something
> >for this "convenience".
> >Actually for some of the playing I do it is a necessity!
> >
> >Larry - Thanks for the feedback - Bob
> >
Yes, the very convenient Pocket Blender is what I currently use, although
EMF Acoustics did announce at the NAMM show their version of a dual-channel
pre-amp. It will have lots of interesting features that I won't go into
here, because they announced it for a May release. More later.....
The Pocket Blender (or EMF's new unit) is something that does not come as
cheaply as, say, the Baggs internal unit, and therefore will not be
everyone's cup of tea. I understand this. What I will say, is that I
believe the B-band (and it's pre-amp, the Core) is so good that I think it
is easily the equal to the Baggs dual source. Yes, even without the mic,
the B-band is that good.....
Additionally, one CAN use a B-band/mic set-up directly into two channels of
a mixing board.
If, as Bob has stated, one absolutely needs "on-board" controls for a dual
system you will lose the ability to eq separately outside of the guitar.
Life ain't perfect, ya'know.......
Larry Pattis
Lpattis "at" xmission "dot" com
Liberal Palette Records
http://liberalpalette.com
"Music Without Borders"
really excited about the possibility of having this type of set-up. So
like other areas of technology in our society, things are changing...maybe
not so rapidly as in the computer hardware industry, but it seems like we
all lived with piezo quack for far too long.
I want to thank Alan Carruth for such a wonderful post describing some of
this technology....one question Alan, you mentioned "electret ( B-band and
others)" and I wasn't aware that anyone else in the world is using this
technology, although I am always happy to be educated. Could you elaborate
on this? Thanks.
Larry Pattis
Liberal Palette Records
http://liberalpalette.com
"Music Without Borders"
| Electronic or no electronics... |
|---|
From: Larry Pattis <lpattis@xmission...>
Subject: Re: Electronic or no electronics...
Date: Sat, 13 Feb 1999 08:21:13 -0700
> Date: Fri, 12 Feb 1999 10:56:35 -0500
> From: "Chuck Murphy" <<crmurphy@ids...>>
>Subject: Re: Electronic or no electronics...
>
>Larry,
>
>Any idea when the new mic will be available? I may just get the B-Band under
>saddle and add the new mic at a later date. Thanks for the info.
>
>Chuck Murphy
>Richmond, RI
Chuck,
It is likely that as we "speak," the new mics are in transit to the
distributors. It shouldn't be more than a week or two for retailers to get
them. The 1999 retail pricing on the B-band (I just got an email from
Finland) with new Core (the internal pre-amp) is $149.99, and with mic
$219.99, so I guess the mic will sell separately for about 70 bucks.
Unbelievably great deal.
All the best,
Larry Pattis
Liberal Palette Records
http://liberalpalette.com
"Music Without Borders"
| On B-Band technology (long) [3] |
|---|
From: Ville Nummela <vnummela@butler...>
Subject: On B-Band technology (long)
Date: Tue, 16 Feb 1999 20:53:40 +0200 (EET)
Once again, Alan Carruth gave us a lengthy posting filled with
information. I'll hop in to clarify a few points in it, mainly
regarding the B-Band pickup.
> Internal mics tend to pick up the lowest bass notes really well,
> since these are mostly produced by the lowest air modes of the body
> and the mic is pretty sensitive there. The further from the sound
> hole the mic is the less it will pick up noise from outside the
> guitar and feed back, but the more it will tend to sound like the
> bottom of the trash can.
The small internal mics, even the cheap ones, are not necessarily
inherently more sensitive in the low end. As I explained in RMMGA a
few month back, it is possible to make even the cheap capsules flat
enough in frequency response.
The real reason lies in the acoustics of the instrument itself. The
lowest modes have greater (free-air) wavelengths than the body itself,
and thus fill the inside of the body almost uniformly. Think of them
as variations in tide, rather than waves that splash against the
shore.
Highs, on the other hand, have wavelenghts comparable or smaller to
the body dimensions. This enables them to have a direction of
propagation, reflect on surfaces, interfere with each other, form
standing waves etc. The mic will only hear whatever interference
pattern happens to be going on at that particular location. It'll miss
some of it entirely, and in comparison to an external mic, will
distort things quite a lot. Even if the mic is ideal. It's the
combination of the body air vibration modes that get to decide what
you are going to hear.
> Under-the-saddle p/u's only 'see' those lows to the extent that the
> air in the body can push/resist the top motion. Piezos, whether
> polymer or 'crystal' (really ceramic), seem to be most sensitive to
> highs anyway, and even with a pre-amp have electrical
> characteristics that emphasize highs. Translation; you tend to get
> a fair amount of attack and pick/finger noise out of them.
Don't know about them being more sensitive to highs. Could be. What I
do know is that they are usually more or less non-linear.
Linearity means that the output is directly proportional to the
input. This is desirable, if one wants an accurate reproduction of
sound. Non-linearity, on the other hand, means that in addition to the
linear stuff, the output signal has a component that is proportional
to the square, qube, or even higher order exponents of the input
signal. Distortion, in other words.
Skipping the maths, whenever you run a signal through a non-linear
device, you will get additional frequency components summed to it.
You can try to hide them with EQ (as is common practise with piezo
pickups), but you can never get rid of them. These unwanted noises
usually overlap with the original signal, and if that happens it's
impossible to isolate and eliminate them later. Certainly not with
just an EQ circuit.
It is these noises people refer to when they speak of the piezo
quack. (Knowingly or not :-) They are most prominent when the signal
is the loudest - that is, during the attack. Quack!
> The electret ( B-band and others) ones may be less prone to that;
> I've only heard the B-band and I liked it. Undersaddles seem to have
> the least tendency to feed back on the whole. A good one can sound
> reasonably like your guitar: if you can only watch the game through
> one hole, this is the one behind home plate.
The secret of the B-Band is the new EMF electret condenser material,
which is inherently much more linear in behavior. More sensitive
too. Thus the ultra-simple design of the Core preamp. It's a textbook
JFET source follower and nothing else. When you start with a good
signal, there's no need to try to fix things in the preamp like others
do.
OF COURSE, even the B-Band is still "watching the game through one
small hole in the fence". Thus the option to add the mic.
(Incidentally, the mic is also an electret condenser. Just not
made of EMF.)
> (Optional Techie digression: an electret element has two parallel
> plates or screens of metal separated by an insulator in such a way
> that one of the plates can move toward or away from the other.
Not quite electret: What you describe here is a condenser element.
> In some cases the insulator or one of the plates has a built-in
> electric charge or bias, while in other cases you have to supply it
> with an external battery.
Now we're getting there. Electret simply means a condenser
(microphone/pickup) element that has permanently charged plates.
> The closer the plates get to each other the more charge they can
> store at a given voltage, so as they are pushed together electrons
> move in, and when they move apart the electrons move out. Thus
> relative motion of the plates gives rise to a small alternating
> electric current that your amp can deal with.
Couldn't have said it better!
> The B-band has the plates (really thin foil or even just a
> metallized surface on plastic) separated by a compressible foam that
> seems to have been squashed to make the bubbles lens- shaped.
Actually, the B-Band element does not have any metal in it at
all. It's conducting plastic with permanently embedded (immobilized)
charged ions in it.
This is the big innovation behind the whole technology. B-Band is a
genuine condenser pickup. Similar to the megabuck studio tools, and
enjoying all the advantages of the condenser technology. Plus one:
Being made of flexible plastic, it does not need to bother with the
rigid and clumsy metal housing of it's predecessors. Which is what
makes it possible to stick it to weird places like under the guitar
saddle.
(Incidentally, the EMF material the B-Band is based on has plenty of
applications elsewhere too. In fact, guitar pickups are but a newcomer
in the family.)
> At least in theory it's easier to tailor the electrical
> characteristics of an elecret element than a piezo, so it could have
> better frequency response characteristics. )
Yup. It's flat as flat can be, throughout the audio range. (Verifiably
so!) If you've got problems, it's your guitar that is making them, not
B-Band.
> Contact sensors are generally piezo based accelerometers. They
> 'hear' the motion of the place they are attached to, which is
> essentially 'filtered' by whatever resonances are active at that
> point. When placed directly under the bridge they act a lot like an
> under-the-saddle p/u, but without so much pick noise. I have seen a
> magnetic top sensor. It can be a real hassle to get the 'perfect'
> spot for a top sensor, but if you find it they can sound great.
> OTOH, that spot may not exist on your guitar......
>
> Magnetic pickups 'see' the velocity of the strings, and 'see' fat
> strings much more clearly than thin ones. Thus they tend to have a
> full bass sound that is not a much 'colored' by the character of the
> guitar. They do block of some soundhole area, which changes the
> acoustic timbre of the instrument, although you will get arguments
> as to how important the change is. They match well electrically with
> the amps, and can be built to have a variety of tone colors.
>
> I think I've seen every possible combination of these over the years
> (in fact, I've got one customer who seems to have a different setup
> on his guitars every time I see him!). They all can sound good,
> depending on the guitar and how they are set up. By the same token
> any of them can sound really bad if you try hard enough. Think about
> the sound you want and the costs (in money and tone) you are willing
> to bear to get it. And keep in mind that all categorical statements
> are false (except the one about my guitars being the best....). ;-)
Oh, feel free to send me one - I'd be happy to offer an unbiased
opinion! :-)
> Alan Carruth / Luthier
Go for the tone,
Ville# E-mail <Ville.Nummela@iki...> Office +358 (0)3 365 2977
# WWW http://www.iki.fi/vnummela/ Cellular (0)40 552 1819
# Plasma Technology Lab, Physics Dept, Fax (0)3 365 2090
# Tampere University of Technology, Finland.
From: <AlCarruth@aol...>
Subject: Re: On B-Band technology (long)
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 09:33:02 EST
The great thing about the internet is that there are lots of good folks out
there to learn from.
Ville Nummela wrote:
<<Don't know about them being more sensitive to highs. Could be. What I
do know is that they are usually more or less non-linear.<snip>It is these
noises people refer to when they speak of the piezo quack. (Knowingly or not
:-) They are most prominent when the signal is the loudest - that is, during
the attack. Quack!>>
I had always suspected that the inherent mechanical stiffness of the PZT
ceramic was what gave it the big output 'bump' I've seen around 4 kHz, but
then the Kynar pickups came out, with the same 'quack', and that stuff is
supposed to be linear from almost DC to 1 MHz, so I couldn't figure it out.
Thanks for the explanation.
<<Actually, the B-Band element does not have any metal in it at
all. It's conducting plastic with permanently embedded (immobilized)
charged ions in it.>>
Shazam! No wonder it works so well; they can probably tailor all of the
electrical and dynamic properties within broad ranges nearly independently of
each other.
<<Not quite electret: What you describe here is a condenser element.<snip>
Now we're getting there. Electret simply means a condenser (microphone/pickup)
element that has permanently charged plates.>>
That should teach me not to over simplify. Thanks.
<<Oh, feel free to send me one[guitar] - I'd be happy to offer an unbiased
opinion! :-) >>
Well, I just finished a nice BRW/WRC 12-fret 000 cutaway that I will be happy
to send along *absolutely free of charge* if you will only send me $4500 for
shipping and handling! Or you could stop by the shop when you are in the
Boston area, or check it out at Healdsburg this summer.
Alan Carruth / Luthier
From: Chuck Boyer <caboyer@mnsinc...>
Subject: Re: On B-Band technology (long)
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 15:21:54 -0500
Organization: Verio East
Tom Loredo wrote in message <<36CC5D80.8174EAE8@spacenet...>>...
>Howdy folks-
> <...>
>Personally, I am not sure what exactly folks mean by "quack." I agree
>it probably has something to do with distortion on the initial transients.
>I think there's more to it, though. I've wondered if part of the problem
>is the risetime of the attack. Any undersaddle pickup picks up the
Nice posts, Ville & Tom!
Re your risetime guess, I've often wondered if piezoelectric
crystals have a "dx/dt" response component in addition to the
"dx"" response, but haven't seen anything about it anywhere.
I definitely hear a distinctive change in tone character when
I strum hard, tho.
>string's motion basically instantly. But our ears here it only as
>it excites a large area of the top, which takes time. I don't know
>what the speed of sound in wood is, but I've wondered if the sharper
>attack is part of the origin of "quack." Also, if you just put your
I wonder if it could be a "near field" effect at the bridge; 'twould be
interesting to place a very directional mic up close to see what
shows up; perhaps a localized nonlinear displacement of the top
at that point IRT a quick hit?
Chuck Boyer
| On B-Band technology [3] |
|---|
From: Tom Loredo <loredo@spacenet...>
Subject: Re: On B-Band technology
Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1999 14:40:31 -0500 (EST)
Howdy folks-
Ville provided probably more tech info than anyone but me likes to see,
but he provided it so clearly that hopefully more of you enjoyed it!
Just to further clarify....
Speaking of piezos:
> Don't know about them being more sensitive to highs. Could be. What I
> do know is that they are usually more or less non-linear.
Piezoelectric technology is prized for its "linearity;" they are
actually quite linear by most standards. I recall one tech report
I read recently boasting of 1% linearity over much of the useful
range of that particular piezo. By most folks' standards,
this would be deemed a quite linear transducer. But our auditory
sense can detect rather small amounts of distortion. 1% is not
considered to be high quality in audio circles, where one typically
seeks less than .1% total harmonic distortion (THD, a measure of
those "additional frequency components" Ville mentioned) in a
good audio component, and less than .01% in a hi fidelity component.
So piezos are actually pretty linear---just not linear enough.
[I have to emphasize that a lot of my opinions on the linearity of
these transducers is little more than educated guessing. It is
incredibly difficult to measure this kind of thing---you can't just
look at the signal out from the pickup and easily see the distortion,
because the input signal from the guitar is complicated, not just
a pure sine wave. Fishman (and presumably others) have special
equipment for doing the appropriate measurements, but I have not
seen any public technical info providing piezo (or B-band!) linearity
measurements in the piezo literature for the parameters relevant
to acoustic guitar amplification.]
As for sensitivity to highs, this can be true of piezos, depending
on the size of the element and the electronics. They have resonances
(frequencies they are especially sensitive to); the smaller the crystal,
the higher the resonance (higher frequencies have smaller wavelengths).
So in soundboard transducers, for example, a tradeoff one has to
worry about is making the element small enough to move the resonance
high enough so that it doesn't affect audible frequencies, yet keeping
it large enough so that it produces a strong signal that won't have
noticable noise. This is less of an issue with undersaddle transducers,
where the crystals are usually quite small (the signal is larger
there, so they can get away with it!).
In addition, electronically piezos resemble a capacitor, which is
a device that has less resistance at high frequencies. Thus if
they are not correctly buffered with a high impedance (resistance) preamp,
the high frequencies will be emphasized (the high impedance has to be high
to swamp the frequency dependence of the piezo's own impedance).
That's why if you plug an unbuffered piezo (like a Baggs LB6 or old
Thinline) into a mixer, you get that harsh sound with no low end.
(This stuff is partly true of the B-band as well, by the way.)
> It is these noises people refer to when they speak of the piezo
> quack. (Knowingly or not :-) They are most prominent when the signal
> is the loudest - that is, during the attack. Quack!
Personally, I am not sure what exactly folks mean by "quack." I agree
it probably has something to do with distortion on the initial transients.
I think there's more to it, though. I've wondered if part of the problem
is the risetime of the attack. Any undersaddle pickup picks up the
string's motion basically instantly. But our ears here it only as
it excites a large area of the top, which takes time. I don't know
what the speed of sound in wood is, but I've wondered if the sharper
attack is part of the origin of "quack." Also, if you just put your
ear next to the bridge, you'll hear a tone that is quite a bit harsher
in quality than the sound you hear a couple feet away. This is
the "watching the game through one small hole in the fence" effect
Ville mentioned, and this, too, gives a midrange emphasis/hype that
I personally associate with "quack." To my ears, the B-band still
quacks, though less so than piezos, and more consistently (i.e., it
doesn't quack more if you play harder).
> The secret of the B-Band is the new EMF electret condenser material,
> which is inherently much more linear in behavior. More sensitive
> too. Thus the ultra-simple design of the Core preamp. It's a textbook
> JFET source follower and nothing else.
The B-band is actually considerably less sensitive than most piezos,
in the sense of putting out a weaker signal right from the pickup.
As a consequence, there's a fair amount of gain in the Core preamp,
more than in most onboard piezo preamps. The level of the output
of the Core is not a reflection of the intrinsic sensitivity of the
pickup technology. And since the Core needs to provide gain, its
first stage is actually a JFET *common source* stage, not a
source follower (which would have a gain slightly less than unity).
> Now we're getting there. Electret simply means a condenser
> (microphone/pickup) element that has permanently charged plates.
Actually, "electret" is the electric analog to "magnet." Just as
a magnet is a material with a permanent magnetic dipole moment
(north and south pole), an electret is a material with a permanent
electric dipole moment (permanent positively and negatively charged
sides). "Electret" refers to this kind of material, which need not
be in a capacitor/condenser. In the audio world, however, it is
not too uncommon to use the word as a shorthand for a condenser
mic that is polarized using electret material (some condenser
mics instead require an external polarizing power source). The
fully correct term is "electret condenser element."
> Similar to the megabuck studio tools, and
> enjoying all the advantages of the condenser technology. Plus one:
> Being made of flexible plastic, it does not need to bother with the
> rigid and clumsy metal housing of it's predecessors.
To be fair to its "predecessors," they have air between the plates
so that they can easily detect air vibrations (microphones!),
which the B-band cannot. They are thus more fragile and put out
weaker signals, requiring that "clumsy metal housing." As I see it,
the cleverness of the EMF folks was in realizing that the idea
behind a condenser mic could be taken over to detecting non-sound
vibrations. As Ville said, a great innovation!
Double-quoting Alan here,
>> Contact sensors are generally piezo based accelerometers.
Some are (the True Tones bridge plate pickup comes to mind), while
others actually detect stress and strain across the pickup element.
My understanding (from talking to the True Tones folks) is that
the majority of contact sensors (soundboard pickups) are actually
of the latter type, and are not accelerometers.
>> Magnetic pickups 'see' the velocity of the strings, and 'see' fat
>> strings much more clearly than thin ones.
On all the acoustic guitars I've played, they see the thin ones better.
That's why all of us players who use soundhole pickups with pole pieces
have them way down for the 1st and 2nd strings. The pickup sees the
changing induced field in the strings. This depends on how magnetic
the strings are. The fat strings get part of their "fattness" from
the winding which, being bronze of some sort, is not magnetic. That's
got to be at least part of the reason why the signal is abnormally
strong from the unwound strings (which are basically entirely magnetic).
Well, more than anyone probably wanted to hear, I'm sure! And if I've
picked on places where I have a somewhat different opinion, hopefully
that doesn't overshadow the wide area of agreement I have with
everything else these gentlemen said!
Peace,
Tom Loredo
From: <AlCarruth@aol...>
Subject: Re: On B-Band technology
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1999 09:01:21 EST
Thanks to Tom Loredo for contiuing my education!
He wrote:
<<On all the acoustic guitars I've played, they [magnetic p/us] see the thin
[strings] better. That's why all of us players who use soundhole pickups with
pole pieces
have them way down for the 1st and 2nd strings. >>
I wonder if that isn't because the mag p/u is a velocity sensor; putting out
current proportionally to the rate of change of the magnetic field? The thin
strings are tuned to higher frequencies, so for a given amplitude thay have to
move faster on the average to complete more cycles/sec. Higer velocity
compensates for less metal, and gives them a stronger signal. The overspun
strings generally have thicker cores than the E or B strings, and according to
Mr. Wizard the bronze wrap doesn't effect the ability of the magnetic field to
detect the steel core: it's not ferro-magnetic and so should be 'transparent'
(ignoring eddy currents and so forth, which should be second-order effects at
best). I'm not an EE, as is probably obvious by now, but somebody out there
must know. Otherwise I'll have to make time to do the experiment.
Alan Carruth / Luthier
From: Tom Loredo <loredo@spacenet...>
Subject: Re: On B-Band technology
Date: Fri, 19 Feb 1999 14:54:29 -0500 (EST)
Howdy again folks-
Alan asks:
> I wonder if that isn't because the mag p/u is a velocity sensor; putting out
> current proportionally to the rate of change of the magnetic field? The thin
> strings are tuned to higher frequencies, so for a given amplitude thay have to
> move faster on the average to complete more cycles/sec. Higer velocity
> compensates for less metal, and gives them a stronger signal. The overspun
> strings generally have thicker cores than the E or B strings, and according to
> Mr. Wizard the bronze wrap doesn't effect the ability of the magnetic field to
> detect the steel core: it's not ferro-magnetic and so should be 'transparent'
> (ignoring eddy currents and so forth, which should be second-order effects at
> best).
Many good and correct points here. Mr Wizard is right about the bronze
wrap. Alan is right about velocity playing a role, but it's the
product of frequency and displacement amplitude and magentization that
matters (freq. times displacement amplitude ~ peak velocity). So there
are lots of variables. Bob Culbertson (another physicist!) and I have
been puzzling a bit about this in email off-list, but neither of us
have a completely consistent picture. In particular, the rate of
change of flux (and thus the induced EMF in the pickup) is proportional
to the frequency, which implies that all other things equal, as you
play up the string, the sound should get louder; twice the amplitude
when you get to the 12th fret. But the typical amplitude of the motion
probably also changes, and the pickup also ends up sampling the string
at a different place in its plucked shape (ie, different
displacement). This is why in my post I said that the amount of
magnetization is part of the story. It can't be just velocity,
because on most guitars I see (mine included) the pole pieces take a
sudden dive at the B and E strings.
I hope this discussion is as fun for some of you as it is for me! 8-)
Peace,
Tom
| What Pick up? |
|---|
From: AlchemyMN <alchemymn@aol...>
Subject: Re: What Pick up?
Date: 28 Feb 1999 04:20:09 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
"JCilove" <<JCilove@ix...>>Date: 2/26/99 6:50 PM wrote:
>I want to put a pickup in my J-200 but dont know what to buy. I play mostly
>Praise and worship music and would plug direct to the mixer through a EQ,
>something like the Fishman. Any sugestians for a Gibson jumbo?
I put in a B-band into a Guild (rosewood) Jumbo and I have been extremly happy
with it. People keep coming up to me saying "what kind of pickup is in that
thing - it sounds great."
I do the P&W thing with the guitar being plugged into a direct box, then to the
board. I don't even bother with the mic when playing live.
More info. at http://www.b-band.com/
michael.
<AlchemyMN@aol...>
| B-Band service |
|---|
From: Fahrnholz <fahrnholz@get2net...>
Subject: B-Band service
Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1999 02:21:59 +0100
Organization: get2net Internet Kunde
Hi all
I recieved a B-band pickup from a shop in Sweden last week (I couldn't =
get one in Denmark), I brought my guitar to the luthier and he installed =
it for me so I had it friday, only to hear that there was some sort of =
resonant buzz. I brought it back monday this week and he tried to =
correct the error, took it out and reinstalled it after checking =
EVerything!, after that there was no sound at all !!?!, any way I =
contacted the shop tuesday morning and told them about the situation and =
at the same time e-mailed EMF (manufacturer of B-band in Finland) and =
asked if they could help me. at 3 pm i got a call from EMF and I tried =
to explain the problem, (and told them that I was a bit under pressure =
since I've got a gig this friday, and I couldn't get through the =
week-end without the naked audience in mind !!!!) a couple of minutes =
later there was a new pickup on the way with express-courier from =
Finland to Denmark and hopefully I should have it installed by friday, =
what a service !!
Morten,
and I'm NOT affiliated with B-band :-)
| EMF Customer Service [2] |
|---|
From: <mikecloud@my-dejanews...>
Subject: EMF Customer Service
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 18:38:23 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
I, like many others, have ranted and raved numerous times about the terrific
tone one can get from an EMF B-Band and Core. EMF should certainly be
commended for developing and producing a truly superior product. As if this
wouldn't have been enough, I think they also offer by far the best customer
service in the industry, and I wanted to recognize them for this as well. A
few days ago I posted a message to the group about balance and volume
problems I am experiencing with the B-Band in my twelve string. Yesterday I
was contacted by E-mail by Heikki at EMF who had apparently read my post. He
informed me they were sending me a new B-Band 29L and Core99 which he thinks
may fix my problems--the 29L contains more EMFi material than standard. This
is the third time that EMF has contacted me after reading one of my posts,
and the second time that they've offered to send me something free of charge!
I've never dealt with a company that cares as much about pleasing theircustomers.
Mike
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Mark Gottlieb <sales@clairebell...>
Subject: Re: EMF Customer Service
Date: Mon, 22 Mar 1999 10:20:40 -0500
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Wow ! That is service. I had mine installed and found that it does indeed do
justice to my guitar. Plugged into a 4 track it is a bit sterile but through
and amp it shines. It's good to see that as a company they are doing their
best to have good customer service. It is just to easy to offer a good
product and ignore any complaints/problems that arise. Hopefully the B-Band
will catch on like Fishman and LRBaggs have and will become a major player
here in North America.
Mark G.
<mikecloud@my-dejanews...> wrote in message
<7d0puv$o3m$<1@nnrp1...>>...
>I, like many others, have ranted and raved numerous times about the
terrific
>tone one can get from an EMF B-Band and Core. EMF should certainly be
>commended for developing and producing a truly superior product. As if
this
>wouldn't have been enough, I think they also offer by far the best customer
>service in the industry, and I wanted to recognize them for this as well.
A
>few days ago I posted a message to the group about balance and volume
>problems I am experiencing with the B-Band in my twelve string. Yesterday
I
>was contacted by E-mail by Heikki at EMF who had apparently read my post.
He
>informed me they were sending me a new B-Band 29L and Core99 which he
thinks
>may fix my problems--the 29L contains more EMFi material than standard.
This
>is the third time that EMF has contacted me after reading one of my posts,
>and the second time that they've offered to send me something free of
charge!
> I've never dealt with a company that cares as much about pleasing their
>customers.
>
>Mike
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
| B-band Core dipswitches [2] |
|---|
From: Larry Pattis <abuse@127...>
Subject: Re: B-band Core dipswitches
Date: Sat, 20 Mar 1999 14:42:24 -0700
Organization: XMission http://www.xmission.com/
In article <3nTI2.300$<Ez6.15@news...>>, "Fahrnholz"
<<fahrnholz@get2net...>> wrote:
> Hey all
> Is there anyboddy out there who's tried the different dipswitch
combinations on the core preamp ?
> I've just installed it yesterday and went for a gig and what a sound!!!,
The guitar is a HD-28 and the dipswitches is setup like they were when I
got the core, (on, on, off, off), which supposedly should be for
dreadnought-style bodies, any experiences ?
>
> Morten
Morten,
You may be one of the first to receive/install the new "Core'99". I
experimented with the dip switches (which provide for bass boost/cut and
treble boost/cut) a couple of months ago, and felt that on a well made
guitar the switches were unecessary...that doesn't mean that having these
options is not useful, even on a well made guitar. I think the folks that
will benefit the most from these new features will be folks with good,
middle of the road guitars, and also folks with less than good guitars.
The dip switches will enable them to bring out whatever may be lacking in
these instruments.
Larry Pattis
Lpattis "at" xmission "dot" com
Liberal Palette Records
http://liberalpalette.com
"Music Without Borders"
From: Larry Pattis <abuse@127...>
Subject: Re: B-band Core dipswitches
Date: Sun, 21 Mar 1999 07:41:04 -0700
Organization: XMission http://www.xmission.com/
In article <Yq1J2.41$<y65.50@news...>>, "Fahrnholz"
<<fahrnholz@get2net...>> wrote:
> >You may be one of the first to receive/install the new "Core'99". I
> >experimented with the dip switches (which provide for bass boost/cut and
> >treble boost/cut) a couple of months ago, and felt that on a well made
> >guitar the switches were unecessary...
>
> do you mean no audible difference ?
I simply found that the most satisfactory sound to my ears through my
guitar (Jumbo Goodall) was in leaving the dip switches untouched. I have
since experimented on a few other guitars, all in the same general quality
range as the Goodall, and the results were similar. No need to boost or
cut from the original settings.
Larry Pattis
Lpattis "at" xmission "dot" com
Liberal Palette Records
http://liberalpalette.com
"Music Without Borders"
| B-band and Lowden? [2] |
|---|
From: Teja Gerken <teja@stringletter...>
Subject: Re: B-band and Lowden?
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 21:21:10 GMT
I spoke with the B-Band folks at the Frankfurt Musikmesse earlier this
month. Apparently they're just about finished with their split-saddle
model, but they didn't have one quite yet. I'd guess that maybe they'll
show it by the Nashville NAMM show.
Teja Gerken
Dave Carter <<davidc@teleport...>> wrote in article
<<36F801A6.142E@teleport...>>...
> I heard a rumor that EMF was going to make a split-bridge b-band for
> Lowden guitars. Any truth to this? If so, does anyone happen to know
> what kind of progress is being made on this project?
From: Tony Rairden <TRairden@XXfqms...>
Subject: Re: B-band and Lowden?
Date: Tue, 23 Mar 1999 18:31:26 -0500
Organization: First Quality Musical Supplies
I have one of the prototypes remaining in stock-- the one I sent out a
couple of months ago hasn't come back, so I have to presume it worked OK. No
upcharge for the split version on the prototypes, but the production models
will be a bit more than unsplit.
A revised version of the split saddle is a current, active project at EMF
according to Heikki, and we should have something in hand within 6 weeks or
so...
Tony Rairden
First Quality Musical Supplies
www.fqms.com
(Anti-SPAM on-- delete Xs from return address to eMail directly.)
Larry Pattis wrote in message ...
>In article <<36F801A6.142E@teleport...>>, <davidc@teleport...> wrote:
>
>> I heard a rumor that EMF was going to make a split-bridge b-band for
>> Lowden guitars. Any truth to this? If so, does anyone happen to know
>> what kind of progress is being made on this project?
>>
>> Thanks for any light you can shed.
>> --
>> DAVE CARTER
>
>
>Dave,
>
>The folks at EMF have had too many irons in the fire for too long! They
>did come up with some "prototype" split elements a while back, but I don't
>know the results of this.
>
>Why not email Heikki directly at <<emf@dlc...>> and ask him what stage this
>(one of many!) project is in. Then you can tell us...8-)
>
>Larry Pattis
>
>Lpattis "at" xmission "dot" com
>
>Liberal Palette Records
>http://liberalpalette.com
>"Music Without Borders"
| clarity about the pre-amp [2] |
|---|
From: Larry Pattis <abuse@127...>
Subject: Re: clarity about the pre-amp
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 09:46:38 -0700
Organization: XMission http://www.xmission.com/
In article <<lo1zi8qnhr.fsf@catapult...>>,
<djm@catapult...> (David J. MacKenzie) wrote:
> EMF announced their own blender-sort of unit especially for the b-band...
> don't know when it'll be available, though.
I was hesitant to "promote" this, due to a variety of reasons....I will
mention this now, since it was not I that brought it up. It may be another
two-three months (hopefully not more) before EMF brings their two signal
pre-amp to market. It will be good, however, and will have some
interesting new features previously not available on this type of
equipment. One feature should be the ability to externally power both the
internal mic AND a version of their Core pre-amp from the external
unit...NO battery needed inside your guitar (finally!). Also, the external
pre-amp should have the ability to get its own power via 48v phantom power
from whatever mixing board it is plugged into (it will have the usual a/c
adapter type set-up as well, in case your board doesn't have phantom
power....but the ability to work off of phantom, plus the ability to NOT
have any battery in your guitar is very appealing, to me, anyway).
Larry Pattis
Lpattis "at" xmission "dot" com
Liberal Palette Records
http://liberalpalette.com
"Music Without Borders"
From: Tony Rairden <TRairden@XXfqms...>
Subject: Re: clarity about the pre-amp
Date: Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:59:34 -0500
Organization: First Quality Musical Supplies
The B-Band mic normally draws power from the internal 9v. battery, along
with the B-Band under-saddle pickup. Powering the mic along with the p/u
reduces nominal battery life from 3000 hours to 1500. The Core preamp can be
modified to utilize external phantom power for the mic, but the battery will
still be required for the under-saddle B-Band p/u and the preamp itself.
The EMF Entity System, to which David MacKenzie and Larry Pattis refer, is
going to be especially felicitous for multi-guitar owners, since you'll be
able to install the mics, pickups and phantom-powered endpin preamps in
multiple instruments and use them with just one external Entity control
unit, which would come with your initial system. They say you'll also be
able to configure the external unit to work with extant Core/B-Band/mic
installations via internal dip switches, but they haven't announced any
pricing for the external control unit by itself... and you won't be able to
use it with both Core and Entity preamps without opening it up and resetting
those dip switches whenever you switch between types. I wouldn't look for
the Entity for at least three months, as Larry indicated...
Tony Rairden
First Quality Musical Supplies
www.fqms.com
(Anti-SPAM on-- delete Xs from return address to eMail directly.)
Jae wrote in message <7do6sm$22a$<1@news...>>...
>the only thing that i know of so far that is cheap enough and capable is
the
>Acoustic blender. It'll power that little mic and is the only fishman
>product that does stereo. I don't think the pocket blender can do that but
>i could be mistaken.
>
| B-Band 12- String Balance [2] |
|---|
From: <mikecloud@my-dejanews...>
Subject: B-Band 12- String Balance
Date: Sun, 04 Apr 1999 14:33:30 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
I'm still trying to get an acceptable volume balance (pair to pair) from the
B- Band in my Taylor 12-String. Yesterday I finally broke down and abandoned
my bone saddle (which sounded great unplugged) and installed a Fishman
Cleartone. This helped the plugged-in balance somewhat, but the bass and
treble E strings are still relatively too quiet. It seems pretty obvious
that this is a problem of poor mechanical contact at the ends of the saddle,
and not excessive downward pressure, based upon my prior experience with
shimming under my bone saddle. At this point I'm fairly confidant that I can
solve the plugged-in balance problem by sanding the bottom of the Cleartone
in a slight arch. It's flexible enough that the pressure of the strings will
push it down into uniform mechanical contact with my apparently less than
flat Taylor saddle slot. Has anyone else had this experience with Taylor
12-Strings and B-Bands?
To complicate the matter, although I think the Cleartone can be shaped for
good plugged-in balance (and with the B-Band, good plugged-in tone as well),
to my ear it doesn't sound nearly as good unplugged as bone. I had thought
of having my luthier make me a bone saddle with Cleartone like cut-outs and
an arched bottom, but bone is so much more rigid than the Cleartone that I
don't think bone will have the "give" to spread out and provide uniform
mechanical contact across the full length of the pick-up. I suppose that if
the arch perfectly matches the the contour of the saddle slot, it might work,
but experience tells me that the level of perfection needed is very hard to
achieve! One other possible solution might be to cut the bone saddle into
six totally independent pieces--although I don't know how this might affect
the stability of the saddle (s) in the slot, and I don't know how this might
affect acoustic tone? I think I remember a post some months ago telling of
trying this? Might have been George Reiswig? George, or anyone else out
there, do you have any advice about the six independent saddles idea?
Mike
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
From: Mark Gottlieb <sales@clairebell...>
Subject: Re: B-Band 12- String Balance
Date: Mon, 5 Apr 1999 10:03:26 -0400
Organization: TotalNet Inc.
Take your Cleartone and cut it in half. In essence you will have two
saddles, 1 for the ead strings and 1 for gbe strings. I've never tried this
but I spoke to a couple of people recently who do this with remarkable
results. Or you can cut it in three 1 for the be strings,1 for dg strings
and one for the ea strings. You can try any combination you want but
remember the placement of the pins on your Taylor may always lead to balance
problems. I guess it has to do with mechanical leverage and all.
Mark G.
<mikecloud@my-dejanews...> wrote in message
<7e7t7r$l67$<1@nnrp1...>>...
>I'm still trying to get an acceptable volume balance (pair to pair) from
the
>B- Band in my Taylor 12-String. Yesterday I finally broke down and
abandoned
>my bone saddle (which sounded great unplugged) and installed a Fishman
>Cleartone. This helped the plugged-in balance somewhat, but the bass and
>treble E strings are still relatively too quiet. It seems pretty obvious
>that this is a problem of poor mechanical contact at the ends of the
saddle,
>and not excessive downward pressure, based upon my prior experience with
>shimming under my bone saddle. At this point I'm fairly confidant that I
can
>solve the plugged-in balance problem by sanding the bottom of the Cleartone
>in a slight arch. It's flexible enough that the pressure of the strings
will
>push it down into uniform mechanical contact with my apparently less than
>flat Taylor saddle slot. Has anyone else had this experience with Taylor
>12-Strings and B-Bands?
>
>To complicate the matter, although I think the Cleartone can be shaped for
>good plugged-in balance (and with the B-Band, good plugged-in tone as
well),
>to my ear it doesn't sound nearly as good unplugged as bone. I had thought
>of having my luthier make me a bone saddle with Cleartone like cut-outs and
>an arched bottom, but bone is so much more rigid than the Cleartone that I
>don't think bone will have the "give" to spread out and provide uniform
>mechanical contact across the full length of the pick-up. I suppose that
if
>the arch perfectly matches the the contour of the saddle slot, it might
work,
>but experience tells me that the level of perfection needed is very hard to
>achieve! One other possible solution might be to cut the bone saddle into
>six totally independent pieces--although I don't know how this might affect
>the stability of the saddle (s) in the slot, and I don't know how this
might
>affect acoustic tone? I think I remember a post some months ago telling of
>trying this? Might have been George Reiswig? George, or anyone else out
>there, do you have any advice about the six independent saddles idea?
>
>Mike
>
>-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
>http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
| Taylor Electronics |
|---|
From: Tom Loredo <loredo@spacenet...>
Subject: Re: Taylor Electronics
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 15:00:21 -0400
Organization: Cornell University
<knucklehead25@my-dejanews...> wrote:
>
> I agree with Tom to the degree that this is a highly subjective issue.
> However, it does amaze me that the same 7 people boast the wonders of b-band
> pickup throughout this news group. After reading the many references, I went
> and had one installed in my taylor 514C and was surprisingly dissapointed
> with it. I put the Fishman back in and explored what other options their
> product line offered. I run it through a Baggs para DI and I don't think you
> could get a better tone if you tried.
>
Fascinating. The guitar I refered to that had the Fishman gear in it
first and then changed to a Highlander + Panasonic internal
mic element was in fact a Taylor 514C. The improvement in tone
switching from the Fishman was, to put it mildly, not small.
And yes, the Fishman was installed by an experienced and reputable
guitar tech. I hope the person who installed your B-band knew
what he or she was doing. As noted in the threads you appear to have
read, there are aspects of the installation that are different
from what one would do with a piezo pickup.
As for "the same 7 people," I humbly suggest you check your counting.
I happen to keep a lot of the amplification-related posts on RMMGA,
and have an archive of pickup posts for the last couple years or
so. Many more than 7 people have spoken highly of the B-band.
To be fair, some also speak highly of Fishman, though in all that time
this is the 1st time I've seen someone prefer Fishman to B-band.
As I've written here before, the Fishman Matrix products seem to suit
a few guitars really well (I've heard 3 or 4 Martin setups, D1s or
D16s, I forget now, that sounded great with it), but to my ears it
sounds bad more often than it sounds good. This could well be
a selection effect, at least in part---they are far and away the
most popular pickups, so if some sizable fraction of them are not
installed well, I'm more likely to hear large numbers of them.
That said, my perception is still that Baggs, Highlander, and EMF
offer superior technology at the present time (for undersaddle
transducers) for most users.
Peace,
Tom Loredo
| newsgroup advice [8] |
|---|
From: Bgmsc <bgmsc@aol...>
Subject: newsgroup advice
Date: 6 Apr 1999 15:41:13 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Someone recently posted an article about trying the B-band pickup based on a
large amount of testimonials on this newsgroup. He tried it and didn't like it.
I did the same thing and went back to my Fishman and am much happier. Well, I
then did a little research based on a comment by this poster that the same 7
people acclaimed the B-band over and over. This is true. One of the largest
endorsers here of B-band is an official endorser of B-band and gets his picture
in an ad for another product he touts. He at least has something to gain. I
then looked at another who loves b-band and if you go back far enough, you find
that he has a ax to grind with Fishman that has nothing to do with the product,
but the fact that he can't buy them at a good enough price. This seems to be a
about that guy in Alaska who hates price gouging at his local music stores and
then talks about how he bought a guitar for $50.00, did about $20.00 worth of
work on it and then sold it to a student for $350.00? Who are these people
whose advice we seek? What is their agenda? I hate being manipulated. The
B-band was hard to install, had lousy string balance and cut out or distorted
when played hard.
Rodger Peterson
"Show me the way to the next whiskey bar, or beer, or vodka, or gin, or . . ."
From: Larry Pattis <abuse@127...>
Subject: Re: newsgroup advice
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 10:02:36 -0600
Organization: XMission http://www.xmission.com/
In article <<19990406114113.20394.00002952@ng-fr1...>>, <bgmsc@aol...>
(Bgmsc) wrote:
> Someone recently posted an article about trying the B-band pickup based on a
> large amount of testimonials on this newsgroup. He tried it and didn't
like it.
> I did the same thing and went back to my Fishman and am much happier. Well, I
> then did a little research based on a comment by this poster that the same 7
> people acclaimed the B-band over and over. This is true. One of the largest
> endorsers here of B-band is an official endorser of B-band and gets his
picture
> in an ad for another product he touts. He at least has something to gain. I
> then looked at another who loves b-band and if you go back far enough,
> that he has a ax to grind with Fishman that has nothing to do with the
product,
> but the fact that he can't buy them at a good enough price. This seems to be a
> powerful forum for misinformation and manipulation for a chosen few. And how
> about that guy in Alaska who hates price gouging at his local music stores and
> then talks about how he bought a guitar for $50.00, did about $20.00 worth of
> work on it and then sold it to a student for $350.00? Who are these people
> whose advice we seek? What is their agenda? I hate being manipulated. The
> B-band was hard to install, had lousy string balance and cut out or distorted
> when played hard.
> Rodger Peterson
> "Show me the way to the next whiskey bar, or beer, or vodka, or gin, or . . ."
Rodger,
If you choose to believe that I use products because I have "something to
gain," so be it. I have always stated that my recommendations of products
The "benefits" that I receive from using or endorsing these products is so
small as to be negligible, really. I, like you, do not like to be misled
by folks with an agenda. I feel that good information is hard to come by,
especially on the internet. Again, I am sorry if you believe my support of
B-band and Elixir is motivated by anything other than me finding these
products to work the absolute best for me.
Larry Pattis
Lpattis "at" xmission "dot" com
Liberal Palette Records
http://liberalpalette.com
"Music Without Borders"
From: Norman Draper <ndraper@prodigy...>
Subject: Re: newsgroup advice
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 14:09:43 -0400
Organization: Prodigy Services, Inc
Charles,
With none of our usual comic banter, I can't agree with you more,including the respect for the original post. There are people here and out
there in the real world with agendas that are antithetical to our own. Our
job is to keep an eye on them.
I have had a business dealing with Larry that I have mentioned here. Hewas nothing less than honest and straightforward in a situation that should
have had him screaming! He strikes me as honest and decent, one of those to
be trusted. I don't even know what a B-band is... I assumed it was a band
that hadn't made the "A" list yet... but if Larry has one and likes it, I'm
willing to bet he really likes it. I know something of his taste in
Wade strikes me as funny, knowledgeable, sometimes pedantic, andhelpful. I don't know about the guitar sale post. Bring me the facts and
I'll make a judgment for you. :-)
I'll close now. I feel a rant about Mississippi John Hurt and Beethovencoming on..... I mean, there the same, right?
Norman (Make Me A Pallet On Beethoven's Floor) Draper ... may do a post
with that title....
From: Hojo2X <hojo2x@aol...>
Subject: Re: newsgroup advice
Date: 6 Apr 1999 19:57:37 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Rodger Peterson wrote:
>I hate being manipulated.
Me, too. Good for you.
He then complained about the B-Band pickup, and how he felt it had been way
oversold on this group.
Fair enough.
I think whenever you get a group of like-minded people together, a sort of
"groupthink" is easy to fall into. My own experiences with the B-Band suggest
that it is a perfectly adequate under-the-saddle pickup, but I happen to prefer
the sound the of the LR Baggs RT system, as I find it more natural-sounding.
But none of these pickups sound altogether natural by themselves - you need to
combine them with a microphone, either internal or external - to get the most
accurate, natural sound. If you put ANY pickup on your guitar expecting the
going to be disappointed.
Folks who are happy with a specific product can easily overpraise it, as,
perhaps, has happened here. But those folks who like it, really, really like
it. It doesn't automatically follow that when they say so that they are trying
to manipulate you.
Then Rodger got a little personal when he wrote:
>And how>about that guy in Alaska who hates price gouging at his local music
stores>and
>then talks about how he bought a guitar for $50.00, did about $20.00 worth
of>work on it and then sold it to a student for $350.00?
This is interesting, as I'm >that guy in Alaska, but the truth of the situation
is a little different.
First, I'd be interested to see where I've made an issue out of "price gouging
at my local music store" - show me the thread where I've carried on about that.
My recurring theme is that you have to do your research and be prepared tomarket will bear. If you walk in unprepared and pay list when you could have
had a discount just by asking, that's your problem, not the store's.
Glori Berkel in KC noticed that her local Taylor dealer was trying to pass off
a year old shopworn guitar as brand new stock, and trying to charge
accordingly, and I merely suggested a strategy for dealing with the somewhat
unethical store owner. But it should go without saying that you have to use
your wits, and know the values, before proceeding into any situation like that.
Then there's the bit where I supposedly
>bought a guitar for $50.00, did about $20.00 worth of>work on it and then sold
it to a student for $350.00.
Get your facts straight before waxing indignant on the Usenet, Rodger. This
shows that you didn't read my post regarding this particular instrument very
carefully at all.
Which somehow doesn't surprise me....
I bought the Hondo Double O you're referring to for $150, not $50. It was and
is a superb-sounding guitar, but from the start was plagued with repair
problems large and small. The braces had to be reglued three times, at about
$40-75 a time, depending on the severity; the bridge and bridgeplate had to be
replaced once, that ran me about $145, and I also spent an immense amount to
get holes drilled into some Schaller mini tuners so they could be used in the
slotted peghead. I dropped off the guitar and the tuners with my repairman so
he could install them, expecting to pay about $40-50.
My repairman at the time was under pressure from his boss at dB Music to turn a
profit on repairs, and to keep track of every minute that he spent on a job.
This particular job was new and totally unfamiliar terrain to him, so when I
Yes, I was overcharged, but I was stuck. So I paid it.
Add to that the general setup and other routine maintenance, and I spent over
$500 in repairs stabilizing and maintaining that instrument.
This was spread out over eleven years of professional use, so I didn't mind it
so much. But when my current repairman told me it would take another $450 to
completely rebuild the top and to make it perfectly intonated up the neck, I
opted to get the instrument's current brace problem stabilized (for about $50)
and sell it, with its $150 hardshell case, for a fair market price.
In that original post, Rodger, if you'd been reading a little closer, you would
have noticed where I mentioned that I had spent more in repairs on that Hondo
copy of a Martin Double than a used Martin Double O would have run me.
Anyway, the high school kid who bought got a nice-sounding instrument for his
for it in a store. He's actually a classical and jazz bassist and a French
Horn player, so guitar is way down his list. He's aware of the instrument's
shortcomings, but it suits him just fine.
Anyway, Rodger, I think your application of critical thinking is just fine,
even if your indignation is misplaced. I personally don't hold with the idea
that it's somehow unethical to make a profit on a musical instrument, but in
this particular instance, I think it's fair to say that I lost money on the
guitar.
Sorry to go on at such great detail, here - just for once, I wish I could match
Larry Pattis' economy of phrase and quiet dignity. But since you were
basically inpugning my integrity, pal, I decided you should be spattered with a
mudshower of verbiage as equally indignant as your own.....
Having said that, Rodger, I agree with your basic point: one should apply
critical thinking to whatever you read, whether on this newsgroup or in the
magazines.
Wade Hampton "That Guy In Alaska" Miller
From: Bob Dorgan <d77737@epix...>
Subject: Re: newsgroup advice
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 19:26:01 -0400
Organization: epix Internet Services
Bgmsc wrote:
>
> Someone recently posted an article about trying the B-band pickup based on a
> large amount of testimonials on this newsgroup. He tried it and didn't like it.
> I did the same thing and went back to my Fishman and am much happier. Well, I
> then did a little research based on a comment by this poster that the same 7
> people acclaimed the B-band over and over. This is true. One of the largest
> endorsers here of B-band is an official endorser of B-band and gets his picture
> in an ad for another product he touts. He at least has something to gain. I
> then looked at another who loves b-band and if you go back far enough, you find
> that he has a ax to grind with Fishman that has nothing to do with the product,
> but the fact that he can't buy them at a good enough price. This seems to be a
> powerful forum for misinformation and manipulation for a chosen few. And how
> about that guy in Alaska who hates price gouging at his local music stores and
> then talks about how he bought a guitar for $50.00, did about $20.00 worth of
> work on it and then sold it to a student for $350.00? Who are these people
> whose advice we seek? What is their agenda? I hate being manipulated. The
> B-band was hard to install, had lousy string balance and cut out or distorted
> when played hard.
> Rodger Peterson
> "Show me the way to the next whiskey bar, or beer, or vodka, or gin, or . . ."
Ok Rodger,
you've asked some fair questions, and raised some issues that need
addressing.
From what I've already read on this thread some of those questions have
been answered, so I won't address them. I will offer three, very short
and succinct statements of my own and you can make your own choices.
1. I have had financial dealings with Larry Pattis and found him to be
honest, and a man of integrity.
2. It is my opinion that the B-band is the finest undersaddle transducer
on the market. I have no affiliation with any music oriented company,
nor could I give one shit who reads/believes this.
3. You would have to be a complete idiot to purchase ANYTHING because it
was endorsed by a faceless entity on a PC monitor.
Now that I've made my statements, answer one question for me, if you
please:
Who are you, and why should I believe that you are not a 14 year oldpimply faced high school freshman, who has decided to stir some shit on
an otherwise friendly, and helpful newsgroup?
I guess I should feel sorry for someone who has gleaned some free
advice, and was studpid enough to follow it without doing their own
research. Yeah, sure.
I'm sure my friend from Alaska will pen his own answer to the misguided
charges you have made. so I will ignore those.
If my response pisses you off, keep in mind that I used a great deal of
restraint in replying. It would have been much easier to say
............ and gone about my business.
Bob Dorgan
From: ChrisRockcliffe <chrisrockcliffe@scripto99...>
Subject: Re: newsgroup advice
Date: Tue, 06 Apr 1999 23:40:44 +0000
Organization: Chris Rockcliffe
Bgmsc wrote (cut from detailed post):
> Who are these people whose advice we seek? What is their agenda? I
> hate being manipulated. Rodger Peterson
Rodger, you make a valid point about integrity here but the inference is
very wrong. To look at it in a wider context - I too have wondered at
times about possible 'hidden agendas', unsolicited testimonials and the
willingness of certain individuals to dive in when certain types of
questions are asked.
You ask "who are these people" as if there were a controlling force at
work? I'm sorry but you are wrong and I hope no-one else thinks that.
If an individual of some standing endorses a product; is it because they
mostly use it and believe in it themselves?. Larry Pattis has already
replied clearly and honestly here I believe.
But you HAVE dived in head-first here and your post appears to contain
some inaccuracies. There is a serious side to this apparent blanket
accusation of yours which needs to be addressed. No doubt our Alaskan
friends, (Wade in particular) will no doubt respond to this. I vaguely
remember the post referred to and if I remember correctly, you've got
some of the facts wrong.
People like John Pearse for example, lurk here and enter into dialogue
which is genuinely helpful - whether about his own products or not. When
people are asking detail or technical questions about John Pearse's
strings, armrests, picks, videos or anything else - and which many
believe to be the best available - what better than to have the
governor, inventor and engineer on-hand to answer those queries.
There are many others besides - luthiers, retailers, musicians, and some
offering very helpful free advice and wonderful websites which are
themselves a labour of love. By God, I wish RMMGA had been available to
me when I was starting out all those years ago.
IMO, we are all lucky on this newsgroup, to have the largest pool of
objective and subjective knowledge on acoustic guitars and related
products, music and theory ever assembled in one place and available to
you at low-cost round the clock. Added to that, are the queries,
thoughts, feelings, prejudices, hates, loves and dreams of many who play
or are learning hard to play acoustic guitars.
In print we often believe we're reading objectively written stuff when
in fact it amounts to carefully constructed 'advertorial'. In for
instance an in-depth product comparison (the editorial review fodder of
specialist mags'), it's OK if the 'winners' of such 'contests' are
better on merit and measurable criteria, but when it's obviously that
they're not, we can smell a big fat rat.
In magazines, there's always the letters page, but try critcising the
editorial and just see if your letter gets published. With RMMGA on the
other hand, you post direct, make your point with as equal a force as
anyone else, and if you disagree strongly - you say so. You can even say
outrageous things and get called all the names under the sun for saying
it too.
>From what I've read, I'd be more inclined to believe a cross-section of
postings from people who mostly have no direct sales interest. Will Wade
Hampton Miller for instance, ever get a free guitar from Martin for
recommending their products. No, it's unlikely, but he will no doubt get
a warm welcome when he visits the factory - for a variety of reasons. We
can't divorce the builders - whether it's the C.F. Martin Co or Mr Olsen
- from their supporters and why should we?
If you're lucky enough to get 50 replies to your query, and 10 of them
are saying much the same thing, then you should take note. If still in
doubt post again and find out why!
When it comes to guitars themselves: The same model names of budget to
midrange guitars are mentioned time and time again on this newsgroup.
Arriving from the planet Zog you could indeed sense a sales conspiracy
until you've been here a while.
Then however you will begin to understand the reasoning of buying a
solid wood guitar (for good acoustic un-amplified playing), or a well
made solid-topped guitar with laminated structure. The real choice is
further limited by adding to that a price range which narrows the field
even further.
It stems from the advice of those who understand the way tone is
produced and how such a guitar will, in most cases, provide longer
lasting satisfaction - particularly for a beginner. Given that you can
pay just as much, or even more for an inferior build - it's just good
advice which needs to be fully born out by the purchaser trying them
out.
A beginner can't always do that. (In such a case, ask a friend who can
play acoustic to accompany you and play each one for you).
If there is a hidden agenda re guitars - and I think there is in a way -
although it's hardly hidden: It is this: By pointing people to the
better instruments available in any price range, it is forcing
manufacturers and luthiers to make more of those better instruments.
Also to improve their build methods and provide better quality
instruments at all levels for a more 'educated' and discerning public.
By extension this applies to pick-ups or anything else discussed here.
As I read in a recent interview with C.F. Martin: He recognises Martins
need to build on their unique heritage, but also the need to compete in
the new world of acoustic guitars which exists today. People at Martin
amongst many many others, no doubt keep tabs on what's being said here -
more than we realise. RMMGA is a growing and powerful force in the world
guitar market place, particularly in the US. This is the worldwide web,
but with around 85-90% of all posts emanating from the US, it's hardly
surprising that American retailers, sales patterns, prices etc dominate
this newsgroup.
Some of the products mentioned and those of individual luthiers are
unlikely to be seen in other parts of the world and prices have little
relevance for those of us who aren't in the US. There are many around
the world who can read and understand English a lot better than they can
write or express themselves in it. Sometimes I wonder what they make of
some of our ramblings. They are the lurkers we rarely hear from and
occasionally get ignored because their English is limited. There are
others who make a real point of trying to help in such cases and we know
who they are.
However most of the world's fammous names and best mass produced
steel-stringed acoustics are built in the US. Indeed most of the better
smaller but growing luthiers are based there too. No doubt some of these
will become major forces tomorrow. In addition the US seems to have more
small luthiers per square mile than anywhere else.
Given that building, selling guitars and other equipment is first and
foremost a commercial business, I'm constantly surprised at how
uncommercial this newsgroup actually is and how little commercial
spamming there is on a group generating - what is it - 1500 posts a
week!. It must be one of the lowest - thankfully - on the Internet.
I know very little about acoustic pick-ups - the exact subject of this
thread. If there is a conspiracy to sell individual brands of acoustic
pick-ups through postings, it seems like a lot of bloody effort for
little reward, on the part of some - other than to offer the well-meant
good advice, which some believe is reward in itself.
This is a very public forum. Although I'm sure you are not a bitter
person, your post nevertheless has a bitterness to it which is totally
unjustified when addressing the group as a whole. With your post
entitled 'Re: newsgroup advice', questioning RMMGA's whole integrity,
you may find that you'll get a few stern replies - questioning your own
approach and motives.
Sorry this is so long, but this one does need to be fully addressed.
Gan canny,
Chris Rockcliffe
From: Larry Kotz <lkotz@uswest...>
Subject: Re: newsgroup advice
Date: Tue, 6 Apr 1999 17:07:35 -0700
Organization: U S WEST Interprise
I am one of the folks who raved about the B-band and I still do. I sell
aircraft parts and don't get endorsed for anything musically related. As a
matter of fact, my biggest account is Kaman Aerospace owner of Kaman Music
(Ovation, Dean Markley, Takamime ect) and all the guys I deal with know I
play Martins and soon a Gibson 67 B-25. I would like to emphasize that I had
my B-Band professionally installed by Brian, the luthier at Rainbow Guitars
here in Tucson. He's the only Luthier at the shop who does B-bands, the
other luthier Rick doesn't do them. I have said in the past for a reasonable
$35.00, have someone who knows what they're doing do the job. By the way,
the pre-amp blew in mine and was promptly replaced and fully covered by
warranty. I bought mine on the recomendation of folks on this newsgroup and
I appreciate their input. I bought my Martins on the advise of folks on this
newsgroup and also am very happy with my choice and appreciate the advise.
But advise is best taken with a grain of salt. So far all the advise I have
gotten has been seasoned perfectly!
--
Larry Kotz------Tucson, AZ Tel: 520-747-4417
K-Tech Aviation, Inc. Fax: 520-745-6139
<lkotz@k-techav...>
www.k-techav.com
From: John Zyla <ccm_touchesNOSPAM@hotmail...>
Subject: Re: newsgroup advice
Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1999 13:50:43 GMT
Organization: remove "NOSPAM" from my address to reply
Well ...... quite a venting from Rodger here.
I suppose I'm one of those who "acclaim the B-Band over and over" too.
You know what, I've never seen the B-Band recommended unless a post
was asking for opinions - aside from the odd "I just got my B-Band and
love it" type post. This type of post is no different from the "Just
put on a set of John Pearse and WOW" posts or "I Love my Elixers" or
"My New Fishman blender sounds GREAT" post. You see, people like a
product and like to share their opinions - this is a newsgroup, for
heaven's sake, Rodger!
As for myself, I have two B-Bands, I purchased them both, I have no
financial interest in EMF, yadda yadda yadda. Sure - EMF uses one of
my comments on their "letters" page, - I wrote that unsolicited, and
if you think EMF pays for that you're paranoid. I simply like the
sound of the B-Band pickup! And, if you do a little reading, I believe
just about every person who posts in rmmga about the B-Band is pretty
careful to mention that other pickups are good too. It's simply inane
to expect folks to never recommend a product they use and like. Inane.
So, judging from your post, you would like everyone who likes a
product to *shut up* and all posts on rmmga be discussions of music
theory or how to make an f barre chord without buzzing strings.
As for your experience with the B-Band, - I'm sure not a-gonna dispute
you, except to say that I have two perfectly funtioning B-Bands, and I
love them. Well - oops ! Did I just say that? Shame on me.
Maybe proper installation is a factor, y'think, maybe ...????
John Zyla
On 6 Apr 1999 15:41:13 GMT, <bgmsc@aol...> (Bgmsc) wrote:
>Someone recently posted an article about trying the B-band pickup based on a
>large amount of testimonials on this newsgroup. He tried it and didn't like it.
>I did the same thing and went back to my Fishman and am much happier. Well, I
>then did a little research based on a comment by this poster that the same 7
>people acclaimed the B-band over and over. This is true. One of the largest
>endorsers here of B-band is an official endorser of B-band and gets his picture
>in an ad for another product he touts. He at least has something to gain. I
>then looked at another who loves b-band and if you go back far enough, you find
>that he has a ax to grind with Fishman that has nothing to do with the product,
>but the fact that he can't buy them at a good enough price. This seems to be a
>powerful forum for misinformation and manipulation for a chosen few. And how
>about that guy in Alaska who hates price gouging at his local music stores and
>then talks about how he bought a guitar for $50.00, did about $20.00 worth of
>work on it and then sold it to a student for $350.00? Who are these people
>whose advice we seek? What is their agenda? I hate being manipulated. The
>B-band was hard to install, had lousy string balance and cut out or distorted
>when played hard.
>Rodger Peterson
>"Show me the way to the next whiskey bar, or beer, or vodka, or gin, or . . ."
| L.R. Baggs Double Barrel [3] |
|---|
From: Larry Pattis <abuse@127...>
Subject: Re: L.R. Baggs Double Barrel
Date: Thu, 08 Apr 1999 14:06:48 -0600
Organization: XMission http://www.xmission.com/
> Tom Loredo wrote:
>
> > Hi folks-
> >
> > I have both a Baggs LB6 and a B-band in my Olson, so these comments are
> > based on in-use comparisons.
> >
> > Lance McCollum wrote:
> > > Now, my biggest complaint is that I've installed about four B-Bands,
two of
> > > which have gone bad, and while they are excellent at sending replacements,
> > > they're in Finland.
> >
> > Now this is a very valid complaint. I have a couple that have had no
> > problems, and none of the ones I know of that have been installed
> > locally have had problems; I wonder how many folks have had this kind of
> > problem...?
Woops, I missed this on my first reply....
Let's remember a few things,
A) EMF is a small start-up company, and yes, they are overseas. Remember,
ALL gear is prone to failure, no matter how well constructed. Hey, stuff
breaks from time to time...that's why I have lots of "back-ups" with gear
that is crucial to my livelihood. Now, see "B" below...
B) The EMF Core (pre-amp) product has had two major changes in the one year
it has been on the market (better battery clip so folks CAN'T fry the
pre-amp, and now the "Core 99" improvements). I own two guitars with the
original gear (although I replaced the battery clips myself), and now a
third with the latest Core 99, and I can't tell any difference in final
sound(within the context of how I use the gear), so folks with the early
stuff shouldn't feel cheated! They had the sound they wanted, a few things
needed some minor improvements, which they were not afraid to implement.
C) Now that the product has gone through these two changes, any of the
early problems are not likely to be repeated, which should make Lance (and
a lot of other folks) happy. The B-band itself (the saddle element) has
also had one recent minor change, and the report is that the few volume
balance problems that folks had will now also be a thing of the past. As I
said in my last post, I just now installed a new Core 99 B-band in a
guitar, and as been MY experience, no shimming or adjusting was needed
whatsoever. I plugged into my PA, and there it was, big, beautiful, and
perfectly BALANCED.
D) Don't forget ALL of the glowing reports of how EMF has dealt with the
problems (refer to "A" above if necessary) that have occured in the past.
Exemplary, in anyone's evaluation.
Larry Pattis
Lpattis "at" xmission "dot" com
Liberal Palette Records
http://liberalpalette.com
"Music Without Borders"
From: George Reiswig <george.reiswig@intel...>
Subject: Re: L.R. Baggs Double Barrel
Date: 9 Apr 1999 00:26:36 GMT
Organization: Intel
Okay, I admit it...I'm one of the guilty parties who is recommending the
B-Band.
I also admit that I have had some trouble with my unit, largely because I
got one of the EARLIEST prototypes of a split-saddle design. It has been a
bit hard to balance.
I further admit never listening to the Trance system, and I don't know how
much it costs. But...
...I am not getting anything from EMF for telling people that I think this
is the best pickup system I've heard thusfar, and I resent the implication.
Simply put, for something in this price range (the same range as the Baggsdual source, etc.) the B-Band is best at duplicating the natural sound of a
guitar. That is my opinion.
Calm down, Pierre.
GR
Pierre Debs <<debs@aecom...>> wrote in article
<<370D0C1C.DC007C30@aecom...>>...
> Here we go again, but this time I will go home and come back tomorrow
after
> calming down to respond. Pierre
>
>
> Larry Pattis wrote:
>
> > In article <<370CFA54.3C8838BD@aecom...>>, <debs@aecom...> wrote:
> >
> > > I swear that b-band is lining the pockets with the forces that drive
the
> > RMMGA.
> > > Many of you will be sorely disappointed with your b-band if you ever
try the
> > > Trance Audio Acoustic Amulet system. This is a not solicited view, I
pay
> > them to
> > > use their products. I read so many posts concerning the quality of
the
> > b-band. 1.
> > > They are built rather flimsy. 2. In my ears they sound no different
that
> > a regular
> > > under the saddle with an internal mic.
> > > For my money, the Trance gives the most natural amplification of an
acoustic
> > > guitar, outside of a good external mic. It is fast.
> > > Love Pierre
> >
> > Interesting (sort of) discussion, of which I snipped 90%. Thanks Tom
L.
> > for your cogent and calm response....
> >
> > A few comments.
> >
> > First, the NEW EMF B-band with what they are calling the "Core 99"
pre-amp
> > has four dip switches on the inside which allow you to boost or cut
several
> > frequencies. On a high-end guitar these are not necessary (for ME,
> > anyway), but for guitars that are either all plywood, or "solid top
only,"
> > these switches will be a real help. No one else in the industry offers
> > anything like it on an internal pre-amp, period.
> >
> > Secondly, I have tried the Trance Audio equipment (admittedly several
> > years ago, but the basic gear remains the same, especially what goes in
the
> > guitar) and I couldn't disagree more with Pierre's commentary. I was
> > considering the gear not only for my own use, but as something that I
could
> > represent via my old shop, Local Music. The Trance gear just does not
give
> > a good enough quality sound for me at concert volume levels. It might
be
> > alright for at home with a practice amp, but not on-stage. I won't
bore
> > you with details of my experience (since it was my experience) but I
now
> > use the B-band gear because it works the best for me. This is also NOT
a
> > solicited view, the EMF folks don't pay me a durned thing, and I just
> > bought (that's right "bought," and with my hard earned cash) yet
another of
> > their systems (from the good folks at First Quality Musical Supply) to
> > install in my new Goodall CJ (that's another post...). So anyone out
there
> > claiming that I am being paid in any form whatsoever by B-band can bite
me.
> > Hah, that's tellin' 'em. (...love those parantheses...)
> >
> > Thirdly, no one, ESPECIALLY the good folks at EMF, is lining their
pockets
> > with anything said here, and if want to mention "forces" on rmmga,
well,
> > the main voice (some guy from Alaska) here uses ("endorses" if you
will)
> > and recommends L.R. Baggs gear. So let's get real here.....
> >
> > Lastly, is it my imagination, or is Pierre the only person I have ever
> > heard recommend the Trance gear (and not just on rmmga, I have never
heard
> > of anyone using this gear)? That is not to say (or even imply) that
simply
> > because something is not widely known of, that it can't be the "best"
> > stuff. Quite the contrary, the B-band gear is hardly known outside
of
> > rmmga, so I am hoping a few rmmga'ers "pop" for the Trance gear based
on
> > Pierre's repeated recommendation, and report back to us. Hopefully
they
> > won't consider it wasted money....I would recommend, when dealing with
> > Trance (or their retailers) that one gets a "100% money back guarantee"
in
> > writing if not fully satisfied after 30 days. Caveat emptor.....
> >
> > Larry Pattis
> >
> > Lpattis "at" xmission "dot" com
> >
> > Liberal Palette Records
> > http://liberalpalette.com
> > "Music Without Borders"
>
>
From: Hojo2X <hojo2x@aol...>
Subject: Re: L.R. Baggs Double Barrel
Date: 9 Apr 1999 01:24:30 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
It would be nice if we could have a thread on this newsgroup about other brands
of pickups without it turning into either:
A) an attack on B-Band pickups.
B) an endorsement of B-Band pickups.
If we can have discussions of Martin guitars without the Larrivee fans
rallying, joining the thread and insisting that Larrivees are really GREAT,
then it seems to me that, as civilized folk, we ought to be able to extend that
to other products, as well. By the same token, if Martin fans can discuss
their favorite guitars without saying "Yeah, and those Larrivees really SUCK!"
then fans of other pickups ought to extend that same courtesty to B-Band.
I like the Baggs gear, always have, always will. I'm such a gearhead I try
anything else that's new on the market, but always come back to Baggs.
That's my choice, although in the case of the mountain dulcimer, nobody else
makes a professional quality pickup for it, so I haven't got a lot of choice
there.
I haven't installed a B-Band in any of my guitars because I wasn't terribly
impressed with those I have heard. But it works JUST FINE, and a lot of people
with fine ears think that they sound terrific.
This stuff, ultimately, is very subjective. I can't hear the difference
between Indian and Brazilian rosewood, either, but people whose opinions I
trust tell me that they can. So I take their word for it.
So speaking strictly for myself, if I happen to mention that I like Baggs
pickups, I would really appreciate it if no-one else takes that as an attack or
a dismissal of any other brand. Baggs gear is just what happens to work best
for me.
Judging from the general responses one sees here, it doesn't appear that a
whole lot of folks are following me lemming-like into the sea on that, either.
My guess is that folks have the sense to think for themselves on the matter.
Wade Hampton Miller
| Using B-Band with Fishman RE |
|---|
From: <mikecloud@my-dejanews...>
Subject: Re: Using B-Band with Fishman RE
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 16:06:56 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
In article <<370fce9a.100387023@news...>>,
benhan@nospam.monmouth.com (Ben Han) wrote:> Is it possible to wire a Fishman RE Humbucker with a B-Band for stereo
> output?
Ben:
Didn't I just talk to you!?! ;-) It is certainly possible to run the RE and
B- Band through the Core's stereo strap-jack. The Core will have to be
modified slightly so that it's power won't be sent to the RE. I'm sure that
Heikki at EMF can tell you how to make the alteration and wire the two
together. He's very helpful!
Mike
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
| Gold B-Band Strap-Jack Nuts |
|---|
From: <mikecloud@my-dejanews...>
Subject: Gold B-Band Strap-Jack Nuts
Date: Sun, 11 Apr 1999 20:27:14 GMT
Organization: Deja News - The Leader in Internet Discussion
I received an E-mail from Heikki at EMF Friday informing me that they now
have gold strap-jack nuts available for the original Core preamp and the Core
'99 (apparently the threads are different). I thought this might be of
interest to B-Band users wanting to match their strap-jack nut to their gold
tuners.
Mike
-----------== Posted via Deja News, The Discussion Network ==----------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Discuss, or Start Your Own
| B-Band in Classical - My Experience [3] |
|---|
From: JJBateson <jjbateson@aol...>
Subject: B-Band in Classical - My Experience
Date: 14 Apr 1999 11:51:20 GMT
Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com
Well gang, I finally got the classical guitar back from the shop with the
B-Band core & mic system installed. I must say that the sound is quite good. I
am very happy with that.
However ...
The finger noise squeeks are so pronounced as to render the guitar unplayable
in a live setting. The sonic quality of the squeeks is excellent, of course!!!
I realize that part of this problem is technique, and Segovia's memory is in no
danger whatsoever of being replaced by mine. Just move your finger a little bit
on one of the strings, any string, and a loud squeek will be heard by all.
I should point out that I was not using a Fishman Pocket Blender or any other
such device. I just plugged straight into an amplifier and played.
Does anyone have any ideas or suggestions to help remedy this situation?
Use only a microphone in front of the guitar when playing live, and forget the
B-Band system entirely? That would be a shame.
Spray something on the strings before performing? Finger-eze (or whatever).
Ideas?
Jay Bateson
From: Tony Rairden <TRairden@XXfqms...>
Subject: Re: B-Band in Classical - My Experience
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 10:41:32 -0400
Organization: First Quality Musical Supplies
Finger-Eze could help some, Jay, and you also might try changing strings to
different brands and models, looking for a string characterized as for
"recording"- these typically have the smoothest outer surfaces, to minimize
finger noise. If the noise is predominantly from the wound strings, you
might also try substituting Gore Elixirs for the wounds-- their "PolyWeb"
coating is Gore-Tex, which is expanded PTFE, and PTFE is generally referred
to as Teflon.
I'm glad you like the sound quality, if not always its content... <G>
Tony Rairden
First Quality Musical Supplies
www.fqms.com
(Anti-SPAM on-- delete Xs from return address to eMail directly.)
I
JJBateson <<jjbateson@aol...>> wrote in message
news:<19990414075120.06172.00000376@ng-fw1...>...
> Well gang, I finally got the classical guitar back from the shop with the
> B-Band core & mic system installed. I must say that the sound is quite
good. I
> am very happy with that.
>
> However ...
>
> The finger noise squeeks are so pronounced as to render the guitar
unplayable
> in a live setting. The sonic quality of the squeeks is excellent, of
course!!!
> I realize that part of this problem is technique, and Segovia's memory is
in no
> danger whatsoever of being replaced by mine. Just move your finger a
little bit
> on one of the strings, any string, and a loud squeek will be heard by all.
>
> I should point out that I was not using a Fishman Pocket Blender or any
other
> such device. I just plugged straight into an amplifier and played.
>
> Does anyone have any ideas or suggestions to help remedy this situation?
> Use only a microphone in front of the guitar when playing live, and forget
the
> B-Band system entirely? That would be a shame.
> Spray something on the strings before performing? Finger-eze (or
whatever).
>
> Ideas?
>
> Jay Bateson
>
From: Tony Rairden <TRairden@XXfqms...>
Subject: Re: B-Band in Classical - My Experience
Date: Wed, 14 Apr 1999 13:36:49 -0400
Organization: First Quality Musical Supplies
I just got input from the factory on this. They say:
>>Does he have the new Core99?? If so, he should make sure the treble boost
is turned OFF from factory default setting ON. This is the recommended set
up by us. For classicals we recommend both LF-enhancer (bass boost) and
HF-enhancer (treble boost) are on turned OFF (ref. installation
instructions, dated 22-Feb-99).
>>Also, one can filter high frequencies somewhat by installing a soft wood
shim over the pickup. It doesn´t make a really noticeable change to the
original sound.<<
Let us know what works for you, Jay.
Tony Rairden
First Quality Musical Supplies
www.fqms.com
(SPAM control on-- delete Xs from return address to correspond.)
JJBateson <<jjbateson@aol...>> wrote in message
news:<19990414075120.06172.00000376@ng-fw1...>...
> Well gang, I finally got the classical guitar back from the shop with the
> B-Band core & mic system installed. I must say that the sound is quite
good. I
> am very happy with that.
>
> However ...
>
> The finger noise squeeks are so p